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Skimmed through the article. Not a word about many factories closed in EU this winter, or moving to other countries (e.g. USA where energy is cheaper). Of cour
by anticodon 4y ago
Skimmed through the article. Not a word about many factories closed in EU this winter, or moving to other countries (e.g. USA where energy is cheaper).
Of course, according to propaganda, it's all "efficiency" and "saving" and definitely not US effectively killing EU industry.
- Eisenstein 4y agoDo you have any data on this?
- anticodon 4y ago[flagged]
- rob74 4y agoThe article you linked is also an example of "spinning" things to make them sound worse than they are: "They are now prompting BASF to lay off thousands of workers and shut down sections of its flagship facility in Ludwigshafen, Germany" - the "thousands of workers" (actually 2600, just enough to qualify as "thousands") are worldwide, in Ludwigshafen itself it's 700 over two years (according to https://www.chemietechnik.de/service-standorte/basf-schliesst-neun-anlagen-und-baut-700-stellen-in-ludwigshafen-ab-486.html https://www.chemietechnik.de/service-standorte/basf-schliess... - actually the number of 700 is also mentioned at the very end of the c&en article).
- MoSattler 4y agoOne "example" is not data.
- starfallg 4y agoBASF is moving some production to China, but even that seems to be a bad decision now with the breakdown of trust with the authoritarian countries pushing for a multi-polar world. Germany is in bed with China in the same way it was in bed with Russia, and you can see how that went.
- HyperSane 4y ago"But it's never mentioned in such oh-so-wonderful super-objective democratic example of western journalism as this Economist article, LOL. The western journalism started to hit the lowest bar set by third-world countries in the last 10-15 years. Or maybe it always was the same propaganda, I just never paid attention and blindly believed it until around 2008-2011." This has very strong "old man yells at clouds" energy. So where does such an incredibly enlightened person such as yourself get news from?
- vladvasiliu 4y agoIn France, one glassmaker stopped production: https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/french-glassmaker-duralex-stops-production-over-brutal-crazy-energy-costs https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/french-glassmaker-duralex-st... Another manufacturer of food-related products closed, too: https://www.europe1.fr/economie/le-groupe-cofigeo-william-saurin-garbit-raynal-va-arreter-80-de-sa-production-en-2023-4152817 https://www.europe1.fr/economie/le-groupe-cofigeo-william-sa... A quick search brings up others, but in French.
- asimpletune 4y agoIt says they stopped for four months, not permanently and definitely didn’t move to the USA
- vladvasiliu 4y ago"Four months" means the winter, right? So, it must have helped with "lowering winter consumption". Fair point about moving to the US, though. --- Edit regarding the US specifically (unfortunately, French only): Here's Safran suspending a factory project near Lyon and increasing production in the US and Malaysia: https://www.lesechos.fr/industrie-services/air-defense/safran-met-sur-pause-son-projet-dusine-a-lyon-a-cause-du-cout-de-lenergie-1873981 https://www.lesechos.fr/industrie-services/air-defense/safra... Also, BASF announcing a "cost-cutting" plan in Europe and increasing production in the US: https://www.europe1.fr/economie/prix-de-lenergie-delocalisations-comment-les-etats-unis-menacent-lindustrie-europeenne-4151114 https://www.europe1.fr/economie/prix-de-lenergie-delocalisat...
- KptMarchewa 4y agoHighest gas prices were in August, not winter.
- vladvasiliu 4y agoThat's correct, but the TFA is about how Europe cut energy consumption this winter. I think the reason is twofold: 1. Industries can probably not afford to cut production immediately 2. At least in France, there were worries about gas availability for the winter. The government tried to have industries lower their consumption to not run out of the reserves during the winter.
- badpun 4y agoLargest Polish producer on fertilizers (Azoty S.A.) completely stopped prouction during summer and autumn last year due to absurdly high gas prices.
- KptMarchewa 4y agoTemporary measures for a time when gas cost 10x more than now.
- jltsiren 4y agoThe EU also managed to avoid recession, contrary to what people expected last year. I think the reason is the same as for the lower then expected impact of the sanctions on Russia. People are quite resourceful when facing an acute crisis. When millions of people have an actual motivation to find better ways of doing things, they tend to find solutions they would have never considered under normal circumstances.
- andreiii 4y agoManaged to avoid recession yet the cities are full of tents and other homeless encapments... things we were seeing only in US in the past are in every major EU capital now. The homelessness is out of control.
- RandomLensman 4y agoI have not seen a change in the two capitals I see regularly.
- andreiii 4y agoVisit Brussels, Frankfurt, Paris, Cologne, Rome...
- RandomLensman 4y agoSo where exactly is Frankfurt "full" with encampments?
- andreiii 4y agoBanhovsviertel but not only. You really want to say the city doesn't have a massive homelessness issue?
- RandomLensman 4y agoYour claim wasn't that there are homelessness issues (which there are and they got worse over the last decade at least) - you alleged cities full of tents and other encampments. And the Bahnhofsviertel always had some presence - sometimes more, sometimes less.
- zpeti 4y agoI still can’t comprehend who the EU leadership are actually the leaders of. If they actually wanted to be the leaders and protect the EU they wouldn’t be doing what they are doing. Their policies are basically designed by the US and benefit the US. The fact that so many in the EU don’t realise this just points out how amazing American propaganda is
- holistio 4y agoCan you give us a few examples of actual policies where you believe saying they were designed by the US and benefit the US is suitable? Asking as a fellow European (HU)
- argentier 4y agoTechnology sanctions on China (for example, ASML in the Netherlands). Sanctions on Russian energy. Basically Germany's entire foreign policy is economic suicide and very much driven by a US stooge (Baerbock). The total penetration of the German Green Party (formerly pacifist) is an excellent example of American influence.
- adriancr 4y agoTechnology sanctions on China are from US. Since ASML is using US tech for EUV they need to comply. These also make sense give China is building up its military using this and if they invade taiwan or other neighbors we'd be forced to fight them. Sanctions on Russian energy are a response to invasion. Apart from moral reasons, they also are meant to cripple russia so we don't have to fight them later in the baltics, in poland or romania. So it's pretty much EU self interest here.
- ExoticPearTree 4y ago> Sanctions on Russian energy are a response to invasion. I might get downvoted for this, but the duty of every head of state is to ensure its country's economic and citizens well being is above anything else. And what the EU as a whole did was exactly the opposite with the sanctions. And no, no one would have had to fight anywhere else in Europe.
- mrtksn 4y agoIf you cherry pick to push and agenda, sure you can do that. You can do the opposite too, for example Poland, which is a country in EU, overtook the US to become world's 2nd largest Li-Ion battery manufacturer. https://notesfrompoland.com/2023/04/06/poland-overtakes-us-to-have-worlds-second-largest-lithium-ion-battery-production-capacity/ https://notesfrompoland.com/2023/04/06/poland-overtakes-us-t... Industry changes over time depending on the the conditions. Europeans are not fond with an aggressive gas station on their footstep, cut back on buying stuff from it and obviously see the negative impact from buying from a gas station further away. They also live less comfortably but it's far from doom and gloom, which many suspect might follow if that gas station expand its power. Everybody knows its not ideal to spend more and everyone knows its not fun to consume less. Sometimes, you have no choice unless you are nihilistic.
- roenxi 4y ago"They are, however, well behind China, which has 77% of global capacity." says the article. So Poland is ahead of the US in a market that the US doesn't attempt to compete in. The US really isn't the country to beat for manufacturing, we're a fair way in to the 21st century by now.
- mrtksn 4y agoThat's a completely different topic, called de-industrialization. What I'm trying to make argument about is the OPs claim that EU industry is failing(because choose not to play by Russian wishes) and all the factories are moving to US and soon EU will be selling nothing more than museum tickets.
- roenxi 4y agoEU: <15% of Li-ion batteries. China: 75% of the same. Now I know China is well known for their green credentials and the EU have been underinvesting in Green technology by policy... of wait, no it is the opposite of both those things. That is what failed EU industry looks like. The EU has been trying to set themselves up with batteries for a decade now and China is 5x-ing them by just knuckling down and producing stuff without worrying about political correctness. The fact that the first market you thought of was one where the EU has been drubbed so badly should be a concern to everyone. Except maybe China.
- riffraff 4y agoIndustrial output in Italy (one or the countries with higher gas consumption) is up while gas consumption is down. Some energy intensive industries (e.g. steel) are down, but the industry overall is up, meaning many found ways to optimize. Edit: a source, in italian https://twitter.com/emmevilla/status/1640628147845492736?t=ZYK-5hg6FLnKezmrr4spxw&s=19 https://twitter.com/emmevilla/status/1640628147845492736?t=Z...
- HyperSane 4y ago> not US effectively killing EU industry. What?
- t0bia_s 4y agoOur propaganda blames Putin for every financial problems we have here (Czechia). Naturally. When people start asking questions like "Who care about green deal if my kids freezing and my pocket is empty beause ridiculous energy prices". Our ministry of interior has even official guides how to promote this blaming of Putin in media. https://www.mvcr.cz/soubor/krit-memo-putin-a-hlad-20221214-pdf.aspx https://www.mvcr.cz/soubor/krit-memo-putin-a-hlad-20221214-p...
- postingawayonhn 4y agoWhat was the US meant to do? They warned Germany and others for years about becoming reliant on Russian gas.
- swarnie 4y agoWhat was the alternative? Because all i can think of is exploiting Africa or cosying up to middle eastern despots.
- RandomLensman 4y agoIn the last 10+ years: using their own gas. Large shale gas resources in Poland and Germany, for example.
- pydry 4y agoThe alternative the US was happy with was probably the one right next door. Poland has powered itself ~80% with coal for decades - attracting almost no flak for it.
- weberer 4y agoHow about not shutting down all their nuclear plants?
- bakuninsbart 4y agoThe US followed their interest, and got everything they wanted out of this conflict, which is fine, that's how countries generally act. It is rather a question of what Germany should have done, 10-15 years ago. Pushing the Association Agreement and the Maidan revolution were not in Germany's interest, in no world is putting Ukraine into our sphere worth escalating tensions so close to our borders and losing access to Russian resources. A region is only safe if all players in that region can feel safe, and Russian security interests were disregarded at every point since 2000. Done is done, but what I really can't forgive is that while pushing for this asinine conflict, there was literally no plan on how to deal with the consequences. Instead of diversifying our energy supply, we are now dependent on the US, which given its trajectory, will bite us in the arse 5 years down the line. Outside of France, there is literally 0 foreign policy competence left in the EU, and it is really showing with how helpless every crisis since 2008 has been handled.
- freehorse 4y agoWell to be fair, it is not US's issue that EU does not do independent politics and blindly follows US in all affairs. It has been shooting itself on the foot for many years now, and keeps doing that even more over last year.