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I cannot edit my post (it has been up for too long, the site won't let me). They aren't swipes, they were an observation at the time of reading that people wer

by xracy 4y ago

I cannot edit my post (it has been up for too long, the site won't let me). They aren't swipes, they were an observation at the time of reading that people were gushing about the paper. I have backed my claims in other parts of the venue. I maintain nothing about calling someone a "fanboy" is derogatory. (I have been an Elon "fanboy" in the past. I am a public transit "fanboy". If fanboy is like, some new 'f-word', then this site has fallen far. I did my research to back that claim up, and I didn't want to get auto-downvoted because I was posting in a venue that seemed to be pretty positive on all of the things Elon is saying in that post. I was pre-defending my comment about trains being a dirty word for Elon, which they are (please see the existence of the hyperloop), by asking people to step outside of their comfort zone and consider it on the merits which I provided. If this is flamebait, why are all of the comments off of it civil discussion of the merits of trains and electric trucks?

dang 4y ago
I believe you about your intent, but the problem is that "I get that this seems to be tesla fan-boy central... And that for some reason trains are a dirty word for Elon..." pattern-matches to garden-variety flamebait. If your intent was to have a substantive conversation about trains, that is definitely not the way to do it. Past explanations about this in case they're helpful: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=burden%20disambiguate%20by%3Adang&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... > why are all of the comments off of it civil discussion of the merits of trains and electric trucks? A fair bit got derailed into arguing about "fanboy". However, that's not really the metric—we have to evaluate these things by their general impact, not what specifically ends up happening in a given case, which is subject to a lot of randomness. I promise you that the general impact of posting like that is to inflame and provoke flamewars. Just the first bits though. The rest of your comment was great! That's why the site guidelines ask you to edit out that sort of thing.
- xracy 4y ago
  That is one comment thread, initiated by me. Even the other discussion on the comment-thread about whether or not fanboy is derogatory, is completely unrelated, and sticking to the merits of the discussion. And I again believe that fanboy is not derogatory. But I've been downvoted to oblivion on hostile threads before, so I think it's reasonable to pre-defend some of my comments in order to change people's mindset going into the thread. If this were flamebait, people would be flaming on it, and they're not.
  - dang 4y ago
    > If this were flamebait, people would be flaming on it, and they're not. Dropping a lit match in a dry forest is a fire hazard even when the match fizzles out. You have to judge by the statistical risk. Individual cases are too random to draw reliable conclusions from. Edit: I see that I already made that point in my previous reply to you. Sorry for the repetition! But surely it's not hard to understand?
    - xracy 4y ago
      I think it's an unreliable standard? Like, everything people say could incite flaming given the right situation. So saying that something could when it doesn't is an arbitrary standard. Also you can't run the statistical risk more than once, so your sample size will always be 1.
      - dang 4y ago
        The general case is quite reliable. If a commenter posts the way you did, the expected value is most certainly a flamewar, and that's obviously the basis on which we have to moderate the site, precisely because we can't predict the specific outcome in any given case. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=%22expected%20value%22%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...
        xracy 4y ago
        But... you're moderating after the discussions have happened. You can moderate on the outcome by the point that you flagged my comment. And the outcome is not actually a flamewar. Also, that's why there are humans moderating, not bots, if you wanted to moderate based on a formula, you could just have a bot do this.
        dang 4y ago
        The random outcome isn't the important thing. If I ride my bike in front of a car and don't get hit, does that mean it was safe to do so? No—it just means I got lucky. We have to moderate for the general case! I'm not sure what else to tell you!

by xracy 4y ago

dang 4y ago

I believe you about your intent, but the problem is that "I get that this seems to be tesla fan-boy central... And that for some reason trains are a dirty word for Elon..." pattern-matches to garden-variety flamebait. If your intent was to have a substantive conversation about trains, that is definitely not the way to do it. Past explanations about this in case they're helpful: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=burden%20disambiguate%20by%3Adang&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... > why are all of the comments off of it civil discussion of the merits of trains and electric trucks? A fair bit got derailed into arguing about "fanboy". However, that's not really the metric—we have to evaluate these things by their general impact, not what specifically ends up happening in a given case, which is subject to a lot of randomness. I promise you that the general impact of posting like that is to inflame and provoke flamewars. Just the first bits though. The rest of your comment was great! That's why the site guidelines ask you to edit out that sort of thing.

xracy 4y ago
That is one comment thread, initiated by me. Even the other discussion on the comment-thread about whether or not fanboy is derogatory, is completely unrelated, and sticking to the merits of the discussion. And I again believe that fanboy is not derogatory. But I've been downvoted to oblivion on hostile threads before, so I think it's reasonable to pre-defend some of my comments in order to change people's mindset going into the thread. If this were flamebait, people would be flaming on it, and they're not.
- dang 4y ago
  > If this were flamebait, people would be flaming on it, and they're not. Dropping a lit match in a dry forest is a fire hazard even when the match fizzles out. You have to judge by the statistical risk. Individual cases are too random to draw reliable conclusions from. Edit: I see that I already made that point in my previous reply to you. Sorry for the repetition! But surely it's not hard to understand?
  - xracy 4y ago
    I think it's an unreliable standard? Like, everything people say could incite flaming given the right situation. So saying that something could when it doesn't is an arbitrary standard. Also you can't run the statistical risk more than once, so your sample size will always be 1.
    - dang 4y ago
      The general case is quite reliable. If a commenter posts the way you did, the expected value is most certainly a flamewar, and that's obviously the basis on which we have to moderate the site, precisely because we can't predict the specific outcome in any given case. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=%22expected%20value%22%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...
      - xracy 4y ago
        But... you're moderating after the discussions have happened. You can moderate on the outcome by the point that you flagged my comment. And the outcome is not actually a flamewar. Also, that's why there are humans moderating, not bots, if you wanted to moderate based on a formula, you could just have a bot do this.
        dang 4y ago
        The random outcome isn't the important thing. If I ride my bike in front of a car and don't get hit, does that mean it was safe to do so? No—it just means I got lucky. We have to moderate for the general case! I'm not sure what else to tell you!