5 ms·

I think that there's the need to a counterpoint to the world that says "you're beautiful, you're smart, you're perfect just the way you are.". A lot of the tim

by yarg 4y ago

I think that there's the need to a counterpoint to the world that says "you're beautiful, you're smart, you're perfect just the way you are.". A lot of the time the modern world tells us that feelings are more important than objective reality. It's bullshit.

waboremo 4y ago
It's not an either or, feelings are part of our reality. Ignoring them doesn't help you, neither does ignoring reality. It seems people forget that it's not a binary scenario, you can absolutely respect someone else's time while also being honest with them. Which is what the modern world is actually getting at, since historically we've ignored feelings far too much for the sake of submission to the status quo.
- JieJie 4y ago
  Balance good. Moderation in everything, including moderation.
tunesmith 4y ago
brutal honesty is not the opposite of "you're beautiful, you're smart, you're perfect just the way you are." And feelings are not opposed to objective reality, for that matter. It's entirely possible to be clear, explicit, truthful, and kind.
- lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 4y ago
  > kind That depends on the person. I’ve known people who take any criticism at any time for any reason as an offense. There is no kind way (from their perspective) to convince such a person that their behavior is anything negative. Neutral at worst or it’s, “What do you have against me?” Edit: To add a bit more context, some of these people are family members and close friends (who are now distant, unfortunately); I very much prefer being kind to such people.
  - etrautmann 4y ago
    Yes, some minority of people will react this way, but that shouldn’t result in the default feedback being unkind.
    - dinom 4y ago
      I think the point is that no matter how kind you are to those people they'll find a reason to take offense anyway.
      - pwinnski 4y ago
        In which case there's no reason to be unkind, either! If you can communicate the truth with kindness and be heard, great. If not, move on. In my experience, unkindness isn't any more effective than kindness in effecting change; it usually prompts defensiveness.
        dinom 4y ago
        Sure, I'd go one step further too. If you've been kind and the person took offense anyway... don't just move on, avoid self-flagellation as well.
        wruza 4y ago
        Some people only receive straightforward truth that shouts in their face. Otherwise they find a hundred of excuses to slip through any kind argument. I agree that brutality should not be default - it’s simply statistically non-beneficial to your self. But avoiding it at all costs make you and/or your circle pay these costs eventually. One of the human types may be called “emotional extremist”. They push borders until someone explodes in their face, and this is the feedback they use. Not reality or arguments. Cold controlled unkindness that presses them against the wall is much better in this case because otherwise someone will be driven crazy by them.
    - lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 4y ago
      I don’t mean to justify or suggest being unkind as a default. In fact, I’ll take the opportunity to say to the person reading this (yes, you): endeavor to be as kind as possible as often as possible. Instead, I recognize that some people cannot be kindly (again, from their perspective) criticized. There is no, “That was disrespectful,” which is taken at face value. When this person hears such a phrase being directed at them, they hear someone being unkind to them.
lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 4y ago
I’ve known a handful of people I would layman-diagnose as having Narcissistic Personality Disorder and this cannot ring more true. Absolutely, one should always be willing to see oneself in a critical light. I see so much of that behavior everywhere I look nowadays. It does make me wonder how much of that is a projection but I doubt it’s only a projection.
32bitkid 4y ago
This is the epitome of the sentiment: those interested in the pursuit of “hard truths” are only extrinsically motivated to find fault in others and gleefully “correct” another’s “faulty” self perception. Never intrinsically motivated to better themselves… Tell me more about how everyone else in the “modern world” is the problem…
- yarg 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - lazyasciiart 4y ago
    Why would you bother giving input when you don't care if or how it is received? Stream of consciousness oversharing isn't required for honesty. You don't have to say everything that comes into your head. Practice giving less of a fuck about everyone else and not evaluating them and telling them how great you are (which is what you achieve when you criticize someone for no reason).
    - yarg 4y ago
      > Why would you bother giving input when you don't care if or how it is received? Because the point of the statement is in the consequences that result, not the emotional response elicited? Here's an example, I once worked with an absolutely useless tester, the only tester on my team. Hadn't picked up by month four on the sort of basic shit he should've had on day one. And he never did. I'd been implementing some rather complex features for the technical lead of one of the other teams, and the changes were almost ready to be built. We had a meeting, with the team lead, my manager, the tester, and I told the team lead that he'd need to test the changes once they were in place. "[The tester] will do that." "No he won't, he's not good enough." Full test coverage mattered more to me than some dude's feelings.
      - 4y ago
m463 4y ago
There are so many - SO MANY - ways that "objective reality" can be counter-productive. For example, I remember reading "For people to change, first they have to feel accepted as they are". This is some "objective reality" people should keep in mind when disclosing "objective reality". "But my spouse/friend/child/coworker is <doing this stupid/misguided/unhealthy thing>!"
- lazyasciiart 4y ago
  Yes, there's a hell of a lot of objective reality that these just-the-facts hardbitten-realist people are usually either unaware of or deliberately denying. This frequently results in suggestions that would only be useful for a spherical cow.
  - jocaal 4y ago
    a spherical cow in a vacuum with g=10 ;)
cortesoft 4y ago
I really don’t think the problems in this world are caused by people having too much self esteem. Many times, the toxic behaviors we observe that seem to be caused by excessive self esteem are actually caused by insecurity.
maxbond 4y ago
I find this a bit perplexing. What value is there in telling people they aren't beautiful or smart? What objective sense of beauty and smartness are you trying to hold them to? I can understand being bothered by things that are overly saccharine, I just don't understand the value proposition in providing a "counterpoint" or trying to check this in some way.
- yarg 4y ago
  Because leading people to believe untrue things about themselves leads to horrific and often untimely realisations and disappointment later in life? Or maybe I'm just a cunt.
  - maxbond 4y ago
    Well, I'm not interested in labeling you a cunt, but I think I see where the remark is coming from, and I know what it's like to say something on the internet and now there's just a firehouse of criticism with a lot of it not being in great faith, and I can sympathize with that. I don't know how reflective the examples you gave are of things you actually say to people, but if you think you know that someone is objectively beautiful or smart and that you telling them that is some kind of bandaid to rip off for them - that is something to reflect on, these are textbook examples of socially constructed ideas. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, as they say. You're smart or beautiful when your community regards you that way, it's the consensus of tastemakers. It's nature as consensus can make it feel "real" or objective, but these are vague squishy concepts that change across time and across cultures. Even within a culture there's a huge diversity of preferences. So some communities might prefer technical skills and call people smart when they're great programmers, some might value media criticism, it's not set in stone. Same goes for beauty, but I'd wager there's even less consensus there. With that in mind, telling someone you don't find them beautiful is just placing a burden on them. It's telling them about how they fail to measure up to some measure in your mind, but the only outcome here is that either don't care or it bums them out. If you don't find them beautiful - that's a property of your eyes, not them, and you're entitled to feel that way but it's something to keep to yourself. The thing you said in another comment about people being invariable reminded me of a comment I made recently: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35318596 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35318596
swayvil 4y ago
Objective reality is a device built from feelings. The precise mechanism stands on pure moosh.
groby_b 4y ago
Let's put it that way. I've had the privilege to work with world class experts in three domains. (And no, I wasn't one in any of those domains, I just got really really lucky) The people who truly knew what they were doing? Usually extremely kind. They don't need to prove their worth by being rude. They were always considerate of feelings, even when they had to tell you that you were really really bad (ask me how i know :) None of them had to resort to "objective reality" justifications. So, just based on that experience, I think we can all afford some kindness. It's not going to make us worse off.
eyelidlessness 4y ago
A phrase I grew up with, and a lesson I’ve had to learn and relearn many times over, is “you can be right until you’re blue in the face […]” The implied part, when it wasn’t explicit, was that being right doesn’t accomplish much if it involves being insufferable. Objectively, if you’re hoping to persuade your audience by being an absolutely correct jerk, you’ll succeed. But only by eliminating your audience and having no one to persuade but yourself. You don’t have to coddle people to treat them respectfully. And if you think you do, I invite you to consider that maybe you have more to learn on the topic.
wruza 4y ago
It’s not bullshit, but yeah the line has to be drawn. Feelings are important until they are based on made up bs.
kayodelycaon 4y ago
Truth (and honesty) can be told with kindness. That's the counterpoint. Screw this everyone should feel good about everything crap but please be kind. Say the things that need to be said, but remember not everything needs to be said. Being blunt is better than evading. But kindness is not weakness. If the person you're talking to works well with brutal honesty, have at. You'll probably have a lot of fun. :) The point is caring about the other person rather than treating them like a punching bag.

by yarg 4y ago

waboremo 4y ago

It's not an either or, feelings are part of our reality. Ignoring them doesn't help you, neither does ignoring reality. It seems people forget that it's not a binary scenario, you can absolutely respect someone else's time while also being honest with them. Which is what the modern world is actually getting at, since historically we've ignored feelings far too much for the sake of submission to the status quo.

JieJie 4y ago
Balance good. Moderation in everything, including moderation.

tunesmith 4y ago

brutal honesty is not the opposite of "you're beautiful, you're smart, you're perfect just the way you are." And feelings are not opposed to objective reality, for that matter. It's entirely possible to be clear, explicit, truthful, and kind.

lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 4y ago
> kind That depends on the person. I’ve known people who take any criticism at any time for any reason as an offense. There is no kind way (from their perspective) to convince such a person that their behavior is anything negative. Neutral at worst or it’s, “What do you have against me?” Edit: To add a bit more context, some of these people are family members and close friends (who are now distant, unfortunately); I very much prefer being kind to such people.
- etrautmann 4y ago
  Yes, some minority of people will react this way, but that shouldn’t result in the default feedback being unkind.
  - dinom 4y ago
    I think the point is that no matter how kind you are to those people they'll find a reason to take offense anyway.
    - pwinnski 4y ago
      In which case there's no reason to be unkind, either! If you can communicate the truth with kindness and be heard, great. If not, move on. In my experience, unkindness isn't any more effective than kindness in effecting change; it usually prompts defensiveness.
      - dinom 4y ago
        Sure, I'd go one step further too. If you've been kind and the person took offense anyway... don't just move on, avoid self-flagellation as well.
      - wruza 4y ago
        Some people only receive straightforward truth that shouts in their face. Otherwise they find a hundred of excuses to slip through any kind argument. I agree that brutality should not be default - it’s simply statistically non-beneficial to your self. But avoiding it at all costs make you and/or your circle pay these costs eventually. One of the human types may be called “emotional extremist”. They push borders until someone explodes in their face, and this is the feedback they use. Not reality or arguments. Cold controlled unkindness that presses them against the wall is much better in this case because otherwise someone will be driven crazy by them.
  - lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 4y ago
    I don’t mean to justify or suggest being unkind as a default. In fact, I’ll take the opportunity to say to the person reading this (yes, you): endeavor to be as kind as possible as often as possible. Instead, I recognize that some people cannot be kindly (again, from their perspective) criticized. There is no, “That was disrespectful,” which is taken at face value. When this person hears such a phrase being directed at them, they hear someone being unkind to them.

lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 4y ago

I’ve known a handful of people I would layman-diagnose as having Narcissistic Personality Disorder and this cannot ring more true. Absolutely, one should always be willing to see oneself in a critical light. I see so much of that behavior everywhere I look nowadays. It does make me wonder how much of that is a projection but I doubt it’s only a projection.

32bitkid 4y ago

This is the epitome of the sentiment: those interested in the pursuit of “hard truths” are only extrinsically motivated to find fault in others and gleefully “correct” another’s “faulty” self perception. Never intrinsically motivated to better themselves… Tell me more about how everyone else in the “modern world” is the problem…

yarg 4y ago
[flagged]
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- lazyasciiart 4y ago
  Why would you bother giving input when you don't care if or how it is received? Stream of consciousness oversharing isn't required for honesty. You don't have to say everything that comes into your head. Practice giving less of a fuck about everyone else and not evaluating them and telling them how great you are (which is what you achieve when you criticize someone for no reason).
  - yarg 4y ago
    > Why would you bother giving input when you don't care if or how it is received? Because the point of the statement is in the consequences that result, not the emotional response elicited? Here's an example, I once worked with an absolutely useless tester, the only tester on my team. Hadn't picked up by month four on the sort of basic shit he should've had on day one. And he never did. I'd been implementing some rather complex features for the technical lead of one of the other teams, and the changes were almost ready to be built. We had a meeting, with the team lead, my manager, the tester, and I told the team lead that he'd need to test the changes once they were in place. "[The tester] will do that." "No he won't, he's not good enough." Full test coverage mattered more to me than some dude's feelings.
    - 4y ago

m463 4y ago

There are so many - SO MANY - ways that "objective reality" can be counter-productive. For example, I remember reading "For people to change, first they have to feel accepted as they are". This is some "objective reality" people should keep in mind when disclosing "objective reality". "But my spouse/friend/child/coworker is <doing this stupid/misguided/unhealthy thing>!"

lazyasciiart 4y ago
Yes, there's a hell of a lot of objective reality that these just-the-facts hardbitten-realist people are usually either unaware of or deliberately denying. This frequently results in suggestions that would only be useful for a spherical cow.
- jocaal 4y ago
  a spherical cow in a vacuum with g=10 ;)

cortesoft 4y ago

I really don’t think the problems in this world are caused by people having too much self esteem. Many times, the toxic behaviors we observe that seem to be caused by excessive self esteem are actually caused by insecurity.

maxbond 4y ago

I find this a bit perplexing. What value is there in telling people they aren't beautiful or smart? What objective sense of beauty and smartness are you trying to hold them to? I can understand being bothered by things that are overly saccharine, I just don't understand the value proposition in providing a "counterpoint" or trying to check this in some way.

yarg 4y ago
Because leading people to believe untrue things about themselves leads to horrific and often untimely realisations and disappointment later in life? Or maybe I'm just a cunt.
- maxbond 4y ago
  Well, I'm not interested in labeling you a cunt, but I think I see where the remark is coming from, and I know what it's like to say something on the internet and now there's just a firehouse of criticism with a lot of it not being in great faith, and I can sympathize with that. I don't know how reflective the examples you gave are of things you actually say to people, but if you think you know that someone is objectively beautiful or smart and that you telling them that is some kind of bandaid to rip off for them - that is something to reflect on, these are textbook examples of socially constructed ideas. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, as they say. You're smart or beautiful when your community regards you that way, it's the consensus of tastemakers. It's nature as consensus can make it feel "real" or objective, but these are vague squishy concepts that change across time and across cultures. Even within a culture there's a huge diversity of preferences. So some communities might prefer technical skills and call people smart when they're great programmers, some might value media criticism, it's not set in stone. Same goes for beauty, but I'd wager there's even less consensus there. With that in mind, telling someone you don't find them beautiful is just placing a burden on them. It's telling them about how they fail to measure up to some measure in your mind, but the only outcome here is that either don't care or it bums them out. If you don't find them beautiful - that's a property of your eyes, not them, and you're entitled to feel that way but it's something to keep to yourself. The thing you said in another comment about people being invariable reminded me of a comment I made recently: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35318596 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35318596

swayvil 4y ago

Objective reality is a device built from feelings. The precise mechanism stands on pure moosh.

groby_b 4y ago

Let's put it that way. I've had the privilege to work with world class experts in three domains. (And no, I wasn't one in any of those domains, I just got really really lucky) The people who truly knew what they were doing? Usually extremely kind. They don't need to prove their worth by being rude. They were always considerate of feelings, even when they had to tell you that you were really really bad (ask me how i know :) None of them had to resort to "objective reality" justifications. So, just based on that experience, I think we can all afford some kindness. It's not going to make us worse off.

eyelidlessness 4y ago

A phrase I grew up with, and a lesson I’ve had to learn and relearn many times over, is “you can be right until you’re blue in the face […]” The implied part, when it wasn’t explicit, was that being right doesn’t accomplish much if it involves being insufferable. Objectively, if you’re hoping to persuade your audience by being an absolutely correct jerk, you’ll succeed. But only by eliminating your audience and having no one to persuade but yourself. You don’t have to coddle people to treat them respectfully. And if you think you do, I invite you to consider that maybe you have more to learn on the topic.

wruza 4y ago

It’s not bullshit, but yeah the line has to be drawn. Feelings are important until they are based on made up bs.

kayodelycaon 4y ago

Truth (and honesty) can be told with kindness. That's the counterpoint. Screw this everyone should feel good about everything crap but please be kind. Say the things that need to be said, but remember not everything needs to be said. Being blunt is better than evading. But kindness is not weakness. If the person you're talking to works well with brutal honesty, have at. You'll probably have a lot of fun. :) The point is caring about the other person rather than treating them like a punching bag.