4 ms·

I'm still flabbergasted that all these people, in the year 2023, think a hypertext markup document viewer with a terrible UX and bizarre design restrictions tha

I'm still flabbergasted that all these people, in the year 2023, think a hypertext markup document viewer with a terrible UX and bizarre design restrictions that takes 4GB of RAM to run and re-implements the features of an entire operating system is the end-all be-all of technology. If it doesn't run in a web browser it's worthless. I can't even come up with a metaphor for it. We're choosing to be stuck with shitty antiquated technology because it's easier than making something better. It's depressing. Like a world that never got past the horse and buggy. Large engines powered by steam would require additional investment in refining of steel and making giant cast or forged parts... easier to just stick with the horse.

reginaldo 4y ago
The browser "won" on seamless distribution. The browser is all the things you said and worse. It conflates the developer API (which could be as complex as the collective human comprehension will allow) with the execution environment (which must be as simple as possible and understandable to mostly anyone). I have a dream that the browser will turn inside out and start losing APIs that will be reimplemented on WebAssembly. But WebAssembly is moving too slowly e.g. with regards to tail calls and parallelism. So it's probably just a dream from now[1]. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlQEQQSqZ9g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlQEQQSqZ9g -> it's an old dream that others have had before.
MR4D 4y ago
Unfortunately, the world is scheduled to end (or reboot if you prefer) at 03:14:07 UTC on January 19th, 2038. [0] So, that means that the remake of an OS that we call a browser is likely to be the pinnacle of computing for our lifetimes. Hopefully after the Great Reboot of 2038, the next generation will learn from our computing mistakes, but since we've never learned from those that came before us, it's highly unlikely. But at least they will have to start from scratch, so there's a chance! [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_2038_problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_2038_problem
mch82 4y ago
> Like a world that never got past the horse and buggy At lunch one day a colleague explained that the size of the space shuttle could be linked to the width of two horses walking on a Roman road :-) One of my favorite lunch breaks of all time.
- qup 4y ago
  Give us the recap
  - mrec 4y ago
    http://www.astrodigital.org/space/stshorse.html http://www.astrodigital.org/space/stshorse.html I'd be very leery of trusting the specifics too much. E.g. the reference to "Roman war chariots", which are not a thing the Romans ever used. Snopes entry: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/railroad-gauge-chariots/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/railroad-gauge-chariots/
    - qup 4y ago
      Nice, so dude was actually just reciting an email FWD he studied to sound interesting. God, I had forgotten about those email FWDs. The old people I know totally abandoned email.
      - KyeRussell 4y ago
        That’s a bit cynical and dickish. Maybe he just read it, found it enjoyable, and remembered it? God.
DuckFeathers 4y ago
Apple's close ecosystem nonsense and blind worship of vendor-lock-in by the tech community is partly to blame for it.
adam_arthur 4y ago
Well, that's partly why WASM exists. It can be run outside a browser, and is much more performant than using the whole browser. The future is very likely going to consolidate around WASM and WebGPU, regardless of what hardware you're targeting. If you want more performant specs, it will be driven through a public and consensus driven way... there are far too many economies of scale to standardization for it not to be. The days of building an ecosystem around a closed, proprietary language/protocol/spec are over. The browser was just the first to bridge the gap... now we move on to WASM, and maybe 10 years from now something newer https://wasmer.io/ https://wasmer.io/ https://wasi.dev/ https://wasi.dev/
- KyeRussell 4y ago
  Yeah. You’re right. THIS will be the time that open wins. When most peoples primary computing is running an OS developed by one of two companies that have a strong incentive to maintain walled gardens. Largest /s imaginable. Your comment is pretty far into LARPing territory.
  - lukevp 4y ago
    Heard of Kubernetes, Docker/OCI, and CNCF? A crapload of computing now is running within Linux (open) in containers (open). Sure, end users use MacOS and Windows as the base OS, but a lot of programs they interact with now are running in a browser or Electron (all open standards-driven things). WASM’s future is as a much more performant and lightweight alternative to containers, to the point where it could be run and used by anyone. containers require a shitload of configuration to be able to run them, but a wasm module can be packaged up in a native assembly that requires zero runtime setup for the end user. Just install and go.
    - 0xbadcafebee 4y ago
      You could say the same thing of Go apps, but they certainly haven't taken over computing. They got a lot of attention from certain corners, but I think everyone acknowledges now that it's just another compiled language. That doesn't solve all your problems, it just solves one. Maybe WASM solves two problems by not needing to be cross-compiled. But there's still a thousand problems left, many of which are addressed by containerization, but not addressed by WASM. The innovation of "docker containers" as a total solution is more akin to a POSIX standard than the Go language. Containers only became popular because of Docker, not because of containers themselves. Docker is a solution to a dozen different problems. "A container" is really just a chroot in a unique namespace. Again, that's basically just one problem solved. The functional combination of all the features of container orchestration software and interoperability is where the actual value of containers lies. Not in the container, but in the 12 different problems that are now all solved in a universal way by all the different solutions that deal with containers in the same way. If WASM can evolve an entire ecosystem and standard around all the problems needed to be solved to run software easier, then sure, it could be revolutionary. We'll see if that happens in a way that is easy to use. My bet is it won't happen.

reginaldo 4y ago

The browser "won" on seamless distribution. The browser is all the things you said and worse. It conflates the developer API (which could be as complex as the collective human comprehension will allow) with the execution environment (which must be as simple as possible and understandable to mostly anyone). I have a dream that the browser will turn inside out and start losing APIs that will be reimplemented on WebAssembly. But WebAssembly is moving too slowly e.g. with regards to tail calls and parallelism. So it's probably just a dream from now[1]. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlQEQQSqZ9g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlQEQQSqZ9g -> it's an old dream that others have had before.

MR4D 4y ago

Unfortunately, the world is scheduled to end (or reboot if you prefer) at 03:14:07 UTC on January 19th, 2038. [0] So, that means that the remake of an OS that we call a browser is likely to be the pinnacle of computing for our lifetimes. Hopefully after the Great Reboot of 2038, the next generation will learn from our computing mistakes, but since we've never learned from those that came before us, it's highly unlikely. But at least they will have to start from scratch, so there's a chance! [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_2038_problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_2038_problem

mch82 4y ago

> Like a world that never got past the horse and buggy At lunch one day a colleague explained that the size of the space shuttle could be linked to the width of two horses walking on a Roman road :-) One of my favorite lunch breaks of all time.

qup 4y ago
Give us the recap
- mrec 4y ago
  http://www.astrodigital.org/space/stshorse.html http://www.astrodigital.org/space/stshorse.html I'd be very leery of trusting the specifics too much. E.g. the reference to "Roman war chariots", which are not a thing the Romans ever used. Snopes entry: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/railroad-gauge-chariots/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/railroad-gauge-chariots/
  - qup 4y ago
    Nice, so dude was actually just reciting an email FWD he studied to sound interesting. God, I had forgotten about those email FWDs. The old people I know totally abandoned email.
    - KyeRussell 4y ago
      That’s a bit cynical and dickish. Maybe he just read it, found it enjoyable, and remembered it? God.

DuckFeathers 4y ago

Apple's close ecosystem nonsense and blind worship of vendor-lock-in by the tech community is partly to blame for it.

adam_arthur 4y ago

Well, that's partly why WASM exists. It can be run outside a browser, and is much more performant than using the whole browser. The future is very likely going to consolidate around WASM and WebGPU, regardless of what hardware you're targeting. If you want more performant specs, it will be driven through a public and consensus driven way... there are far too many economies of scale to standardization for it not to be. The days of building an ecosystem around a closed, proprietary language/protocol/spec are over. The browser was just the first to bridge the gap... now we move on to WASM, and maybe 10 years from now something newer https://wasmer.io/ https://wasmer.io/ https://wasi.dev/ https://wasi.dev/

KyeRussell 4y ago
Yeah. You’re right. THIS will be the time that open wins. When most peoples primary computing is running an OS developed by one of two companies that have a strong incentive to maintain walled gardens. Largest /s imaginable. Your comment is pretty far into LARPing territory.
- lukevp 4y ago
  Heard of Kubernetes, Docker/OCI, and CNCF? A crapload of computing now is running within Linux (open) in containers (open). Sure, end users use MacOS and Windows as the base OS, but a lot of programs they interact with now are running in a browser or Electron (all open standards-driven things). WASM’s future is as a much more performant and lightweight alternative to containers, to the point where it could be run and used by anyone. containers require a shitload of configuration to be able to run them, but a wasm module can be packaged up in a native assembly that requires zero runtime setup for the end user. Just install and go.
  - 0xbadcafebee 4y ago
    You could say the same thing of Go apps, but they certainly haven't taken over computing. They got a lot of attention from certain corners, but I think everyone acknowledges now that it's just another compiled language. That doesn't solve all your problems, it just solves one. Maybe WASM solves two problems by not needing to be cross-compiled. But there's still a thousand problems left, many of which are addressed by containerization, but not addressed by WASM. The innovation of "docker containers" as a total solution is more akin to a POSIX standard than the Go language. Containers only became popular because of Docker, not because of containers themselves. Docker is a solution to a dozen different problems. "A container" is really just a chroot in a unique namespace. Again, that's basically just one problem solved. The functional combination of all the features of container orchestration software and interoperability is where the actual value of containers lies. Not in the container, but in the 12 different problems that are now all solved in a universal way by all the different solutions that deal with containers in the same way. If WASM can evolve an entire ecosystem and standard around all the problems needed to be solved to run software easier, then sure, it could be revolutionary. We'll see if that happens in a way that is easy to use. My bet is it won't happen.