4 ms·

It’s normal that a lot of people are against pushing the retirement age back as everyone, individually, wishes to retire younger. As a country though, difficul

by srge 4y ago

It’s normal that a lot of people are against pushing the retirement age back as everyone, individually, wishes to retire younger. As a country though, difficult decisions must be made since life expectancy is increasing and a lot of baby boomers are retiring. The left knows this but use the situation to get at Macron and amass political capital for the next elections. All of this while the country is virtually bankrupt. Edit: syntax

dhconnelly 4y ago
While it’s true that difficult decisions need to be made, it seems that the point of democracy is that such decisions should have popular mandates. This reform doesn’t seem to have anything close to a popular mandate
- srge 4y ago
  The representative democracy means that there’s no need for popular mandate because the people elected representative. Next election, they’ll chose differently if they want.
  - colpabar 4y ago
    This is a dumb way of thinking about democracy. People shouldn't quietly let politicians do whatever they want until their term is up, they should let them know that they are unhappy. If the government doesn't provide a way to do this, then there is no other option but to protest. Government should be afraid of citizens, not the other way around.
    - srge 4y ago
      If the « don’t tread on me » sticker was a HN comment
  - jacooper 4y ago
    Kind of a problem, imagine if a politician was elected to do something, then does something totally different, basically lying. Who's going to stop him/her?
  - anigbrowl 4y ago
    This worked great during an earlier era. Insisting on 18th century political technology to solve 21st century problems in an era of instantaneous communication is a scam. Elections can be and are manipulated, and insisting that they are the sole legitimate form of political expression is a giant red flag.
skywal_l 4y ago
Yeah I am not a big fan of "difficult decisions" against your people and the whole TINA thing [0]. Historically it's not great. Democracy is about responsibility. The people is supposed to assume their decisions and if this is what they want it's what they should get. We are not talking a blocking minority here. Leading against you people works for a while until your rule just become authoritarian. The point of contention here is that Macron says he was elected and discards the conditions in which he was elected. A lot of people voted for him to block the far right lady and not because they were in love with his platform. It's the third time in 20 years this happens and my gut feeling is, there won't be a fourth time following that pension reform debacle, as a lot of people will just stay home the next time around. I hope I am wrong. I guess the responsible behavior would have been to get a big tent government instead of a tone-deaf one. But we get the politicians we deserve. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_is_no_alternative https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_is_no_alternative
- ethbr0 4y ago
  The people don't understand a lot of things. That's why representative democracies, voting on the basis of higher level choices, are effective. I struggle to imagine a scenario whereby there is ever broad French popular support for raising the retirement age, even if failing to do so bankrupts the country.
  - skywal_l 4y ago
    > The people don't understand a lot of things. Let's agree to disagree. > That's why representative democracies, voting on the basis of higher level choices, are effective. Working 2 additional years is a pretty high level choice I believe. > even if failing to do so bankrupts the country. I keep reading about bankruptcy but I believe this is incorrect. Here is the reason why the government imposed that law: https://www.budget.gouv.fr/files/uploads/extract/2022/programme_stabilite/PSTAB%202022.pdf https://www.budget.gouv.fr/files/uploads/extract/2022/progra.... Quote in french, sorry: La capacité productive de l’économie serait soutenue par les réformes et les investissements du Gouvernement, qui contribueraient notamment à accroître l’offre de travail et à atteindre le plein emploi: réforme des retraites [...]. This is according to the french government. It is its official position. The purpose is to increase the workforce amount. My guess is that the aim is to allow for a pressure on salaries and eventual reduction in pension dues. The cost of labor reduction has been the common thread of french governments for the last 20 years so it would be coherent. The pension system is more or less fine. It has been reformed multiple times already. The mass of baby boomers are on the precipice of life expectancy statistics now and besides you will find plenty of other possibilities to reform the system [0] if this is what you want. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UR-yJQaa6LE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UR-yJQaa6LE (in french)
strbean 4y ago
> All of this while the country is virtually bankrupt. Could you elaborate on this? Their debt in 2022 was 113.7% of GDP, compared to the USA's 764.7%.
- srge 4y ago
  Whereas the USA can print their own money. Also France is the most taxed country in OCDE (French Wikipedia link sorry: https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prélèvements_obligatoires https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prélèvements_obligatoires)
  - skywal_l 4y ago
    > Also France is the most taxed country in OCDE Mostly because in France pensions are financed through taxes and managed by the state. If you want to compare apple to apples, you would have to include spending on healthcare, education AND pensions here. From your link: Ainsi plus de la moitié recette des prélèvements obligatoires est affecté au financement des retraites et de la sécurité sociale.
    - srge 4y ago
      Yes. It further solidifies my point that we should not take more money from the people.
- AnimalMuppet 4y ago
  By what measure is the USA's 764%? What are you counting as "debt" in that calculation?
anigbrowl 4y ago
As a country though, difficult decisions must be made. People often misuse the passive voice to lend weight to an argument by clothing it in the language of inevitability, as if policy were weather.

by srge 4y ago

dhconnelly 4y ago

While it’s true that difficult decisions need to be made, it seems that the point of democracy is that such decisions should have popular mandates. This reform doesn’t seem to have anything close to a popular mandate

srge 4y ago
The representative democracy means that there’s no need for popular mandate because the people elected representative. Next election, they’ll chose differently if they want.
- colpabar 4y ago
  This is a dumb way of thinking about democracy. People shouldn't quietly let politicians do whatever they want until their term is up, they should let them know that they are unhappy. If the government doesn't provide a way to do this, then there is no other option but to protest. Government should be afraid of citizens, not the other way around.
  - srge 4y ago
    If the « don’t tread on me » sticker was a HN comment
- jacooper 4y ago
  Kind of a problem, imagine if a politician was elected to do something, then does something totally different, basically lying. Who's going to stop him/her?
- anigbrowl 4y ago
  This worked great during an earlier era. Insisting on 18th century political technology to solve 21st century problems in an era of instantaneous communication is a scam. Elections can be and are manipulated, and insisting that they are the sole legitimate form of political expression is a giant red flag.

skywal_l 4y ago

Yeah I am not a big fan of "difficult decisions" against your people and the whole TINA thing [0]. Historically it's not great. Democracy is about responsibility. The people is supposed to assume their decisions and if this is what they want it's what they should get. We are not talking a blocking minority here. Leading against you people works for a while until your rule just become authoritarian. The point of contention here is that Macron says he was elected and discards the conditions in which he was elected. A lot of people voted for him to block the far right lady and not because they were in love with his platform. It's the third time in 20 years this happens and my gut feeling is, there won't be a fourth time following that pension reform debacle, as a lot of people will just stay home the next time around. I hope I am wrong. I guess the responsible behavior would have been to get a big tent government instead of a tone-deaf one. But we get the politicians we deserve. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_is_no_alternative https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_is_no_alternative

ethbr0 4y ago
The people don't understand a lot of things. That's why representative democracies, voting on the basis of higher level choices, are effective. I struggle to imagine a scenario whereby there is ever broad French popular support for raising the retirement age, even if failing to do so bankrupts the country.
- skywal_l 4y ago
  > The people don't understand a lot of things. Let's agree to disagree. > That's why representative democracies, voting on the basis of higher level choices, are effective. Working 2 additional years is a pretty high level choice I believe. > even if failing to do so bankrupts the country. I keep reading about bankruptcy but I believe this is incorrect. Here is the reason why the government imposed that law: https://www.budget.gouv.fr/files/uploads/extract/2022/programme_stabilite/PSTAB%202022.pdf https://www.budget.gouv.fr/files/uploads/extract/2022/progra.... Quote in french, sorry: La capacité productive de l’économie serait soutenue par les réformes et les investissements du Gouvernement, qui contribueraient notamment à accroître l’offre de travail et à atteindre le plein emploi: réforme des retraites [...]. This is according to the french government. It is its official position. The purpose is to increase the workforce amount. My guess is that the aim is to allow for a pressure on salaries and eventual reduction in pension dues. The cost of labor reduction has been the common thread of french governments for the last 20 years so it would be coherent. The pension system is more or less fine. It has been reformed multiple times already. The mass of baby boomers are on the precipice of life expectancy statistics now and besides you will find plenty of other possibilities to reform the system [0] if this is what you want. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UR-yJQaa6LE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UR-yJQaa6LE (in french)

strbean 4y ago

> All of this while the country is virtually bankrupt. Could you elaborate on this? Their debt in 2022 was 113.7% of GDP, compared to the USA's 764.7%.

srge 4y ago
Whereas the USA can print their own money. Also France is the most taxed country in OCDE (French Wikipedia link sorry: https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prélèvements_obligatoires https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prélèvements_obligatoires)
- skywal_l 4y ago
  > Also France is the most taxed country in OCDE Mostly because in France pensions are financed through taxes and managed by the state. If you want to compare apple to apples, you would have to include spending on healthcare, education AND pensions here. From your link: Ainsi plus de la moitié recette des prélèvements obligatoires est affecté au financement des retraites et de la sécurité sociale.
  - srge 4y ago
    Yes. It further solidifies my point that we should not take more money from the people.
AnimalMuppet 4y ago
By what measure is the USA's 764%? What are you counting as "debt" in that calculation?

anigbrowl 4y ago

As a country though, difficult decisions must be made. People often misuse the passive voice to lend weight to an argument by clothing it in the language of inevitability, as if policy were weather.