6 ms·

This article twice makes accusations of "racism, sexism, and abuse" without backing it up with facts. Is there any more information about it in the public spher

by Veen 4y ago

This article twice makes accusations of "racism, sexism, and abuse" without backing it up with facts. Is there any more information about it in the public sphere? Or is it just: "These things are bad and MariaDB is bad, so we'll say they did these things". It certainly seems like the company is going down the toilet, but I'd be dubious about the motivations of an anonymous rant on Medium about a publicly traded company.

jjulius 4y ago
The only article referencing those claims that I could find when Googling just now was this very article. Beyond that, there is a Glassdoor page with negative reviews that suggest the same.
- tablespoon 4y ago
  > The only article referencing those claims that I could find when Googling just now was this very article. Beyond that, there is a Glassdoor page with negative reviews that suggest the same. I'm thinking those accusations are probably just slurs by someone with a grudge. I'm running into all kinds of paywalls with Glassdoor and I don't want to register, but google searches make it look like pretty much every company under the sun has a Glassdoor review complaining of racism, sexism, etc. For instance this one claims that Apple is homophobic, racist, sexist, and "very Trumpian": https://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Employee-Review-Apple-RVW18218910.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Employee-Review-Apple-RVW1...
  - mschuster91 4y ago
    > I'm running into all kinds of paywalls with Glassdoor and I don't want to register, but google searches make it look like pretty much every company under the sun has a Glassdoor review complaining of racism, sexism, etc. For instance this one claims that Apple is homophobic, racist, sexist, and "very Trumpian": The larger the company, the larger that departments will evolve their internal culture... and if team leads do not take care to prevent discriminatory bullshit, it will grow roots and fester. Every so often, I read here or on Reddit the question "why should companies involve themselves into kitchen room talk?"... the answer is simple: failure to do so will reflect very negatively on your company's image and thus its hiring perspectives. When I search for hotels, Amazon products, whatever - I don't go for the good reviews, I go for the bad ones.
    - catiopatio 4y ago
      From your bio: > You call it "alt-left", I proudly call it "Antifa" You’re hardly representing an unbiased viewpoint, and this isn’t a problem Apple has.
      - mschuster91 4y ago
        > You’re hardly representing an unbiased viewpoint, and this isn’t a problem Apple has. It absolutely is a problem Apple has, judging by at least three lawsuits which I could find in literally 30 seconds of Googling [1][2][3] - and it isn't just recent claims either, I could find one that went back to 2001 [4]. And yes, a lack of diversity in hiring can also lead to other problems down the road, such as racial bias in sensors [5]. All of these events could have been prevented by focusing on an inclusive corporate culture. [1] https://www.businessinsider.com/former-apple-lawyer-lawsuit-alleges-discrimination-fired-after-criticizing-culture-2022-12 https://www.businessinsider.com/former-apple-lawyer-lawsuit-... [2] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/sep/03/appletoo-apple-employees-organize-allege-harassment-discrimination https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/sep/03/appletoo-... [3] https://www.oregonlive.com/news/2019/10/black-employee-sues-apple-for-750k-claims-his-complaints-about-racist-oregon-customers-caused-firing.html https://www.oregonlive.com/news/2019/10/black-employee-sues-... [4] https://www.wired.com/2001/11/apple-hit-with-racial-lawsuit/ https://www.wired.com/2001/11/apple-hit-with-racial-lawsuit/ [5] https://www.forbes.com/sites/emmawoollacott/2022/12/29/apple-sued-over-racial-bias-of-apple-watch/?sh=344971731799 https://www.forbes.com/sites/emmawoollacott/2022/12/29/apple...
        tablespoon 4y ago
        > It absolutely is a problem Apple has, judging by at least three lawsuits which I could find in literally 30 seconds of Googling [1][2][3] - and it isn't just recent claims either, I could find one that went back to 2001 [4]. You're moving the goalposts. In your opinion, is being "very Trumpian" a problem that Apple has? Is Tim Cook running around in a MAGA hat and I totally did not notice? Edit: Regarding that 2001 article, it's just an article about a lawsuit being filed, which anyone can do whether they have a case or not. I haven't yet found that case, but I found a similar one from 2005 by an apparently obese Black lesbian woman represented by the same law firm: Here's the trial order. Skimming it, it seems the plaintiff was a terrible employee and her case was so bad she and her lawyers were sanctioned for filing a frivolous lawsuit: https://casetext.com/case/patterson-v-apple-computer https://casetext.com/case/patterson-v-apple-computer > Burmeister offered plaintiff an opportunity to support the Apple Hardware Engineering organization, believing that this opportunity would give her a chance to showcase her skills and build a base of support for her clients.... This assignment was not successful. Plaintiff's engineering clients, including Cheryl Smith ("Smith"), an African-American HR Senior Director, found plaintiff to be unresponsive, unhelpful, and rude. Smith believed plaintiff had minimal interpersonal skills. According to Smith, plaintiff frequently responded, "No," or "That's not my job," when Smith sought her assistance. Plaintiff was also resistant to providing data on bonuses, stating that the task was hard. Smith received complaints from her HR team about plaintiff's attitude and refusal to perform work. These problems caused Smith ultimately to limit her interaction with Smith, and to seek intervention from Burmeister. > Judy Goodson ("Goodson"), another African-American HR Director, found plaintiff to be often unavailable, rude, disrespectful, and negative. To create an opportunity for plaintiff, Goodson invited her to make a presentation to a Senior Vice President and his staff. However, plaintiff declined.... > According to plaintiff's colleague Deborah House ("House"), plaintiff was frequently absent from department staff meetings and quarterly HR Department meetings. According to Burmeister, plaintiff was rude to her colleagues in the Compensation Group, prompting Burmeister to counsel her repeatedly about her inappropriate tone, demeanor, and ability to work with others and be a team player. > Plaintiff's work day was also interrupted by ongoing personal appointments and activities. She maintained a standing weekly hair appointment during working hours. Starting in February 2002, she commenced weekly sessions with a psychologist whose office was in Oakland, approximately 60 miles from Apple's Cupertino offices. She also spent up to and hour and a half a day trading her personal stock portfolio, and at other times played video games and did crossword puzzles on her computer. > Plaintiff believed she was entitled to yearly merit increases and promotions. However, Apple had a salary freeze in effect from the time plaintiff was hired until late 2003. Thus, the first opportunity for plaintiff to receive a merit increase was in connection with the review cycle in November 2003. When plaintiff learned that she was not receiving a merit increase, she accessed two Apple databases during work hours to obtain confidential salary and tenure information regarding certain of her colleagues.... > Subsequently, as part of the investigation, plaintiff met with Parker and Hull. Plaintiff confirmed that she had accessed and reviewed her manager's and co-workers' salaries and confidential information independent of any business reason. She considered it appropriate to access the information, and admitted that she had distributed the information to her attorney and therapist. She also confirmed that she had chosen to use a personal laptop for her work at Apple, and therefore possessed confidential Apple information on that laptop. At the conclusion of the meeting, Parker told plaintiff she was suspended with pay pending the outcome of the investigation.... > On November 18, 2003, plaintiff filed a charge of discrimination with the EEOC (charge No. 377-2004-00145), alleging discrimination on the basis of race, and retaliation for engaging in protected activities. > The court finds that the motion must be GRANTED. Plaintiff has provided no facts to support the racial harassment claim against Walker, failed to state any factual or legal basis for the retaliation claim or the defamation claim against Walker, and stated no facts showing that her invasion of privacy claim was well-grounded in fact or law. On more than one occasion, defendants put plaintiff on notice that her claims against Walker were frivolous, but plaintiff persisted... > The court awards defendants $5,000 in sanctions against plaintiff and her counsel, the Law Offices of Waukeen Q. McCoy.
rwalle 4y ago
Yeah, I was so turned off by this that I did not go much further beyond the first paragraph. I mean, is this a rant or a genuine effort to write a story? Why should I bother to read an article that makes such strong accusations without providing concrete evidence, and is the rest of the article is also written in the same fashion?
hintymad 4y ago
> "racism, sexism, and abuse" without backing it up with facts. Yeah, I was turned off by this too. Unfortunately this is the psyche of the western world. You disagree with me? You're racist. You think bias in an ML model comes from bias in data. You're a bigot. Such accusation works and LeCun apologizes.
- creatonez 4y ago
  This is not "the psyche of the western world", this is a ridiculous caricature you came up with.
- KyeRussell 4y ago
  You coming here to grind your personal axe makes you at least as bad as the author of this article. Even your concrete example is ridiculous. “ML bias tends to come from biased training data” is…THE widely accepted viewpoint. The whole CONVERSATION around ML bias, from academia to MSM shovelware articles, is framed this way: that ML is not an escape hatch from pre-existing biases. As someone that definitely considers themselves an SJW (to use the lingo that I bet that you use), and that runs in these circles, the only time I see the viewpoint that you’re arguing against is in the form of strawmen posed by stunted kids on 4chan complaining about “pronouns” or something.
  - hintymad 4y ago
    I was paraphrasing the debate between LeCun and Gebru. The point is not whether LeCun's point about bias in data is correct or not. The point is that his view was different from Gebru, and Gebru called him out as a bigot (Anima Anandkumar also chimed in) and he apologized. Another example below. If these are the strawmen 4chan people were criticizing, I'd say 4chan is right on. """ Another ex-colleague here. I was not going to participate in the discussions but your post made me realize objective truth should come out. I do believe she actually thinks she is making the world a better place but in reality any interaction with her has been incredibly stressful having to carefully weigh every move made in her presence. When this blows over her departure will be a net positive for the morale of the company. To give a concrete example of what it is like to work with her I will describe something that has not come to light until now. When GPT-3 came out a discussion thread was started in the brain papers group. Timnit was one of the first to respond with some of her thoughts. Almost immediately a very high profile figure has also also responded with his thoughts. He is not Lecun or Dean but he is close. What followed for the rest of the thread was Timnit blasting privileged white men for ignoring the voice of a black woman. Nevermind that it was painfully clear they were writing their responses at the same time. Message after message she would blast both the high profile figure and anyone who so much as implied it could have been a misunderstanding. In the end everyone just bent over backwards apologizing to her and the thread was abandoned along with the whole brain papers group which was relatively active up to that point. She has effectively robbed thousands of colleagues of insights into their seniors thought process just because she didn't immediately get attention. The thread is still up there so any googler can see it for themselves and verify I am telling the truth. """
creatonez 4y ago
According to the thread on /r/mysql, the author used to work there. So there is some credibility to the claims.

by Veen 4y ago

jjulius 4y ago

The only article referencing those claims that I could find when Googling just now was this very article. Beyond that, there is a Glassdoor page with negative reviews that suggest the same.

tablespoon 4y ago
> The only article referencing those claims that I could find when Googling just now was this very article. Beyond that, there is a Glassdoor page with negative reviews that suggest the same. I'm thinking those accusations are probably just slurs by someone with a grudge. I'm running into all kinds of paywalls with Glassdoor and I don't want to register, but google searches make it look like pretty much every company under the sun has a Glassdoor review complaining of racism, sexism, etc. For instance this one claims that Apple is homophobic, racist, sexist, and "very Trumpian": https://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Employee-Review-Apple-RVW18218910.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Employee-Review-Apple-RVW1...
- mschuster91 4y ago
  > I'm running into all kinds of paywalls with Glassdoor and I don't want to register, but google searches make it look like pretty much every company under the sun has a Glassdoor review complaining of racism, sexism, etc. For instance this one claims that Apple is homophobic, racist, sexist, and "very Trumpian": The larger the company, the larger that departments will evolve their internal culture... and if team leads do not take care to prevent discriminatory bullshit, it will grow roots and fester. Every so often, I read here or on Reddit the question "why should companies involve themselves into kitchen room talk?"... the answer is simple: failure to do so will reflect very negatively on your company's image and thus its hiring perspectives. When I search for hotels, Amazon products, whatever - I don't go for the good reviews, I go for the bad ones.
  - catiopatio 4y ago
    From your bio: > You call it "alt-left", I proudly call it "Antifa" You’re hardly representing an unbiased viewpoint, and this isn’t a problem Apple has.
    - mschuster91 4y ago
      > You’re hardly representing an unbiased viewpoint, and this isn’t a problem Apple has. It absolutely is a problem Apple has, judging by at least three lawsuits which I could find in literally 30 seconds of Googling [1][2][3] - and it isn't just recent claims either, I could find one that went back to 2001 [4]. And yes, a lack of diversity in hiring can also lead to other problems down the road, such as racial bias in sensors [5]. All of these events could have been prevented by focusing on an inclusive corporate culture. [1] https://www.businessinsider.com/former-apple-lawyer-lawsuit-alleges-discrimination-fired-after-criticizing-culture-2022-12 https://www.businessinsider.com/former-apple-lawyer-lawsuit-... [2] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/sep/03/appletoo-apple-employees-organize-allege-harassment-discrimination https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/sep/03/appletoo-... [3] https://www.oregonlive.com/news/2019/10/black-employee-sues-apple-for-750k-claims-his-complaints-about-racist-oregon-customers-caused-firing.html https://www.oregonlive.com/news/2019/10/black-employee-sues-... [4] https://www.wired.com/2001/11/apple-hit-with-racial-lawsuit/ https://www.wired.com/2001/11/apple-hit-with-racial-lawsuit/ [5] https://www.forbes.com/sites/emmawoollacott/2022/12/29/apple-sued-over-racial-bias-of-apple-watch/?sh=344971731799 https://www.forbes.com/sites/emmawoollacott/2022/12/29/apple...
      - tablespoon 4y ago
        > It absolutely is a problem Apple has, judging by at least three lawsuits which I could find in literally 30 seconds of Googling [1][2][3] - and it isn't just recent claims either, I could find one that went back to 2001 [4]. You're moving the goalposts. In your opinion, is being "very Trumpian" a problem that Apple has? Is Tim Cook running around in a MAGA hat and I totally did not notice? Edit: Regarding that 2001 article, it's just an article about a lawsuit being filed, which anyone can do whether they have a case or not. I haven't yet found that case, but I found a similar one from 2005 by an apparently obese Black lesbian woman represented by the same law firm: Here's the trial order. Skimming it, it seems the plaintiff was a terrible employee and her case was so bad she and her lawyers were sanctioned for filing a frivolous lawsuit: https://casetext.com/case/patterson-v-apple-computer https://casetext.com/case/patterson-v-apple-computer > Burmeister offered plaintiff an opportunity to support the Apple Hardware Engineering organization, believing that this opportunity would give her a chance to showcase her skills and build a base of support for her clients.... This assignment was not successful. Plaintiff's engineering clients, including Cheryl Smith ("Smith"), an African-American HR Senior Director, found plaintiff to be unresponsive, unhelpful, and rude. Smith believed plaintiff had minimal interpersonal skills. According to Smith, plaintiff frequently responded, "No," or "That's not my job," when Smith sought her assistance. Plaintiff was also resistant to providing data on bonuses, stating that the task was hard. Smith received complaints from her HR team about plaintiff's attitude and refusal to perform work. These problems caused Smith ultimately to limit her interaction with Smith, and to seek intervention from Burmeister. > Judy Goodson ("Goodson"), another African-American HR Director, found plaintiff to be often unavailable, rude, disrespectful, and negative. To create an opportunity for plaintiff, Goodson invited her to make a presentation to a Senior Vice President and his staff. However, plaintiff declined.... > According to plaintiff's colleague Deborah House ("House"), plaintiff was frequently absent from department staff meetings and quarterly HR Department meetings. According to Burmeister, plaintiff was rude to her colleagues in the Compensation Group, prompting Burmeister to counsel her repeatedly about her inappropriate tone, demeanor, and ability to work with others and be a team player. > Plaintiff's work day was also interrupted by ongoing personal appointments and activities. She maintained a standing weekly hair appointment during working hours. Starting in February 2002, she commenced weekly sessions with a psychologist whose office was in Oakland, approximately 60 miles from Apple's Cupertino offices. She also spent up to and hour and a half a day trading her personal stock portfolio, and at other times played video games and did crossword puzzles on her computer. > Plaintiff believed she was entitled to yearly merit increases and promotions. However, Apple had a salary freeze in effect from the time plaintiff was hired until late 2003. Thus, the first opportunity for plaintiff to receive a merit increase was in connection with the review cycle in November 2003. When plaintiff learned that she was not receiving a merit increase, she accessed two Apple databases during work hours to obtain confidential salary and tenure information regarding certain of her colleagues.... > Subsequently, as part of the investigation, plaintiff met with Parker and Hull. Plaintiff confirmed that she had accessed and reviewed her manager's and co-workers' salaries and confidential information independent of any business reason. She considered it appropriate to access the information, and admitted that she had distributed the information to her attorney and therapist. She also confirmed that she had chosen to use a personal laptop for her work at Apple, and therefore possessed confidential Apple information on that laptop. At the conclusion of the meeting, Parker told plaintiff she was suspended with pay pending the outcome of the investigation.... > On November 18, 2003, plaintiff filed a charge of discrimination with the EEOC (charge No. 377-2004-00145), alleging discrimination on the basis of race, and retaliation for engaging in protected activities. > The court finds that the motion must be GRANTED. Plaintiff has provided no facts to support the racial harassment claim against Walker, failed to state any factual or legal basis for the retaliation claim or the defamation claim against Walker, and stated no facts showing that her invasion of privacy claim was well-grounded in fact or law. On more than one occasion, defendants put plaintiff on notice that her claims against Walker were frivolous, but plaintiff persisted... > The court awards defendants $5,000 in sanctions against plaintiff and her counsel, the Law Offices of Waukeen Q. McCoy.

rwalle 4y ago

Yeah, I was so turned off by this that I did not go much further beyond the first paragraph. I mean, is this a rant or a genuine effort to write a story? Why should I bother to read an article that makes such strong accusations without providing concrete evidence, and is the rest of the article is also written in the same fashion?

hintymad 4y ago

> "racism, sexism, and abuse" without backing it up with facts. Yeah, I was turned off by this too. Unfortunately this is the psyche of the western world. You disagree with me? You're racist. You think bias in an ML model comes from bias in data. You're a bigot. Such accusation works and LeCun apologizes.

creatonez 4y ago
This is not "the psyche of the western world", this is a ridiculous caricature you came up with.
KyeRussell 4y ago
You coming here to grind your personal axe makes you at least as bad as the author of this article. Even your concrete example is ridiculous. “ML bias tends to come from biased training data” is…THE widely accepted viewpoint. The whole CONVERSATION around ML bias, from academia to MSM shovelware articles, is framed this way: that ML is not an escape hatch from pre-existing biases. As someone that definitely considers themselves an SJW (to use the lingo that I bet that you use), and that runs in these circles, the only time I see the viewpoint that you’re arguing against is in the form of strawmen posed by stunted kids on 4chan complaining about “pronouns” or something.
- hintymad 4y ago
  I was paraphrasing the debate between LeCun and Gebru. The point is not whether LeCun's point about bias in data is correct or not. The point is that his view was different from Gebru, and Gebru called him out as a bigot (Anima Anandkumar also chimed in) and he apologized. Another example below. If these are the strawmen 4chan people were criticizing, I'd say 4chan is right on. """ Another ex-colleague here. I was not going to participate in the discussions but your post made me realize objective truth should come out. I do believe she actually thinks she is making the world a better place but in reality any interaction with her has been incredibly stressful having to carefully weigh every move made in her presence. When this blows over her departure will be a net positive for the morale of the company. To give a concrete example of what it is like to work with her I will describe something that has not come to light until now. When GPT-3 came out a discussion thread was started in the brain papers group. Timnit was one of the first to respond with some of her thoughts. Almost immediately a very high profile figure has also also responded with his thoughts. He is not Lecun or Dean but he is close. What followed for the rest of the thread was Timnit blasting privileged white men for ignoring the voice of a black woman. Nevermind that it was painfully clear they were writing their responses at the same time. Message after message she would blast both the high profile figure and anyone who so much as implied it could have been a misunderstanding. In the end everyone just bent over backwards apologizing to her and the thread was abandoned along with the whole brain papers group which was relatively active up to that point. She has effectively robbed thousands of colleagues of insights into their seniors thought process just because she didn't immediately get attention. The thread is still up there so any googler can see it for themselves and verify I am telling the truth. """

creatonez 4y ago

According to the thread on /r/mysql, the author used to work there. So there is some credibility to the claims.