8 ms·

Just put WebGL/WebGPU behind permission and the problem is solved. I don't understand why highly paid Google and Firefox developers cannot understand such a sim

Just put WebGL/WebGPU behind permission and the problem is solved. I don't understand why highly paid Google and Firefox developers cannot understand such a simple idea.

merlish 4y ago
For a user to correctly answer a permissions dialog, they need to learn programming and read all the source code of the application. To say nothing of the negative effects of permission dialog fatigue. In practice, no-one who answers a web permissions dialog truly knows if they have made the correct answer. Asking the user a question they realistically can't answer correctly is not a solution. It's giving up on the problem.
- codedokode 4y ago
  They don't need to learn programming. Just write that this technology can be used for displaying 3D graphics and fingerprinting and let user decide whether they take the risk.
  - pmontra 4y ago
    Most of them will say, "I need to see this site, who cares about fingerprints." Some will notice that they're on their screen anyway, a few will know what it's all about. Maybe "it can be used to display 3D graphics and to track you", but I expect that most people will shrug and go on.
    - bcrosby95 4y ago
      You could maybe display the request in the canvas instead of a popup. If the user can't see it, they'll never say yes.
  - kevingadd 4y ago
    They're going to be confused if you say "display 3D graphics", because canvas and WebGL will still work. The website will just be laggier and burn their battery faster. That's not going to make sense to them. "Fingerprinting" is a better approach to the messaging, but is also going to be confusing since if you take that approach, almost all modern permissions are fingerprinting permissions, so now you have the problem of "okay, this website requires fingerprinting class A but not fingerprinting class B" and we expect an ordinary user to understand that somehow?
- deelly 4y ago
  > In practice, no-one who answers a web permissions dialog truly knows if they have made the correct answer. Counterpoint: if webpage with latest news (for example) immediately asks me to allow notification, access to webcamera and location I definitely know what is correct answer to these dialogs.
  - kevingadd 4y ago
    "Do you want to allow example.com to send you notifications" is way more understandable to a layperson than "do you want to allow access to WebGPU" or "do you want to allow access to your graphics card". Especially because they would still have access to canvas and WebGL. Permission prompts are a HUGE user education issue and also a fatigue issue. Rendering is widely used on websites so if users get the prompt constantly they're going to tune it out.
    - account42 4y ago
      You can always word things in a way that the user understands. > Especially because they would still have access to canvas and WebGL. Those should also be behind a (or the same) permission prompt.
- tgsovlerkhgsel 4y ago
  I think browsers should distinguish more aggressively between "web application", "web site", and "user hostile web site". Many APIs should be gated behind being a web application. This itself could be a permission dialog already, with a big warning that this enables tracking and "no reputable web site will ask for it unless it is clear why this permission is needed - in doubt, choose no". Collect opt-in telemetry. Web sites that claim to be a web application but keep getting denied can then be reclassified as hostile web sites, at which point they not only lose the ability to annoy users with web app permission prompts, but also other privileges that web sites don't need.
  - beebeepka 4y ago
    Do you have something specific in mind with your opening paragraph? Because defining what is a web site and what's an app, strikes me as particularly impractical idea. You correctly point out that yes, there are a number of powerful APIs that should be behind permissions. But there are a number of permissions already, so we need to start bundling them and also figure out how to present all this to the regular user. Frankly, I wouldn't know where to begin with all this.
    - tgsovlerkhgsel 4y ago
      News sites are a particular category that I expect to spam people with permission prompts, as they did when notifications became a thing. Without the deterrent of possibly landing in the naughty box, they'd all do it. With it, I still expect some of them to try until they land in the box.
  - bagacrap 4y ago
    Clearly if we knew how to perfectly identify user hostile websites we'd not need permissions dialogs at all. Distinguishing between site and app, e.g. via an installation process, is equivalent to a permissions dialog, except that you're now advocating for one giant permission dialog instead of fine-grained ones, which seems like a step backwards.
    - 4y ago
ericflo 4y ago
Look to the cookie fatigue fiasco for how that might turn out. This simple idea is not always the right one.
- 7to2 4y ago
  > [ ] Always choose this option.
- epolanski 4y ago
  Why fiasco?
7to2 4y ago
It's not that they don't understand it, it's that they don't want the average user to have a convenient way to control this setting. Prompting the user for permission would give the user a very convenient way to keep it disabled for most websites. It's as simple as that. Think about it this way: Which is more tedious: going into the settings and enabling and disabling webGPU every time you need it or a popup? Which way would see you keeping it enabled? Its tyranny of the default with an extra twist :)
miohtama 4y ago
Just don’t use Chrome. There are plenty of alternative web browsers you can choose that are more privacy oriented. You are not Chrome’s customer unless you pay for it - or you have 100% money back guarantee. Demanding features on free product is never going to go anywhere.
nashashmi 4y ago
They are highly paid enough to not work on it and smart enough to thwart suggestions like this with “permission overload issue”. But more frankly, fingerprinting is a whack a mole issue and if it were a real security problem, it would slow feature advancements. And fingerprinting is too unreliable for any real world use.
illiarian 4y ago
Just put WebGL/WebGPU behind permission and the problem is solved. Just put WebUSB behind permission and the problem is solved. Just put WebHID behind permission and the problem is solved. Just put WebMIDI behind permission and the problem is solved. Just put Filesystem Access behind permission and the problem is solved. Just put Sensors behind permission and the problem is solved. Just put Location behind permission and the problem is solved. Just put Camera behind permission and the problem is solved. Just put ... I don't understand why highly paid Google and Firefox developers cannot understand such a simple idea.
- ctenb 4y ago
  Yes please
- shadowgovt 4y ago
  Everything except WebGL and WebGPU allows the system to change more state than what is rendered on a screen. Users already expect browsers to change screen contents. That's why WebGPU / WebGL aren't behind a permission block (any moreso than "show images" should be... Hey, remember back in the day when that was a thing?).
- rockdoe 4y ago
  I can't tell whether you're kidding or not, but this is exactly the path Firefox was advocating: https://blog.karimratib.me/2022/04/23/firefox-webmidi.html https://blog.karimratib.me/2022/04/23/firefox-webmidi.html The page implies it no longer requires permissions, but I just tested and you definitely get a permissions popup, just a different one. WebHID, WebUSB and Filesystem Access are IIRC, "considered harmful" so they won't get implemented. And Sensor support was removed after sites started abusing battery APIs.
  - illiarian 4y ago
    > I can't tell whether you're kidding or not, I'm not. It's a bit of a sarcasm (?) listing a subset of APIs that browsers implement (or push forward against objections like hardware APIs) and that all require some sort of permission. > but this is exactly the path Firefox was advocating Originally? Perhaps. Since then Firefox's stance is very much "we can't just pile on more and more permissions for every API because we can't properly explain to the user what the hell is going on, and permission fatigue is a thing"
justinclift 4y ago
> why highly paid Google ... developers "Completely co-incidentally", it's in Google's best interest to be able to fingerprint everyone. So, changing it to actually be privacy friendly while they have the lion's share of the market doesn't seem like it's going to happen without some major external intervention. :/
- maigret 4y ago
  It's running on Chrome. Google doesn't need fingerprinting. By making it harder for others to fingerprint it actually cements Google position in the ad market.
  - justinclift 4y ago
    > It's running on Chrome. Google doesn't need fingerprinting. Are you saying that because you reckon everyone using a Chromium based browser logs into a Google account?
elpocko 4y ago
I do this since forever, but I have to give explicit permission to load and run JS, which solves a lot of other problems as well. Letting any site just willy-nilly load code from whereever and run it on your machine is insane, and it's well worth the effort to manually whitelist every site.
- account42 4y ago
  uMatrix was and unfortunately still is the best interface for fine-grained opt-in permissions.
kevingadd 4y ago
Saturating the user with permissions requests for every single website they visit is a dead-end idea. We have decades of browser development and UI design history to show that if you saturate the user with nag prompts that don't mean anything to them, they will just mechanically click yes or no (whichever option makes the website work).
- codedokode 4y ago
  Permission popups can be replaced with an additional permission toolbar or with a button in the address bar user needs to click. This way they won't be annoying and won't require a click to dismiss.
  - cyral 4y ago
    Like the site settings page on Chrome, which is in the address bar (clicking the lock icon)? You can set the permissions (including defaults) for like 50 of these APIs.
    - codedokode 4y ago
      You can display only permissions that a page requests, starting from most important ones. For example, toolbar could look like: Enable: [ location ] [ camera ] [ fingerprinting via canvas ] ...
- account42 4y ago
  We already have extensions for websites that spam the user with unwanted popups and other displays. Those just need to be extended to cover permission abuse and be included by default in all webbrowsers.
WhyNotHugo 4y ago
They probably can understand these concepts, but privacy and anonymity are not their main priorities.
acchow 4y ago
"Be kind. Don't be snarky. Converse curiously. Please don't sneer" HN Guidelines https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Just put WebGL/WebGPU behind permission and the problem is solved. I don't understand why highly paid Google and Firefox developers cannot understand such a simple idea.

merlish 4y ago

For a user to correctly answer a permissions dialog, they need to learn programming and read all the source code of the application. To say nothing of the negative effects of permission dialog fatigue. In practice, no-one who answers a web permissions dialog truly knows if they have made the correct answer. Asking the user a question they realistically can't answer correctly is not a solution. It's giving up on the problem.

codedokode 4y ago
They don't need to learn programming. Just write that this technology can be used for displaying 3D graphics and fingerprinting and let user decide whether they take the risk.
- pmontra 4y ago
  Most of them will say, "I need to see this site, who cares about fingerprints." Some will notice that they're on their screen anyway, a few will know what it's all about. Maybe "it can be used to display 3D graphics and to track you", but I expect that most people will shrug and go on.
  - bcrosby95 4y ago
    You could maybe display the request in the canvas instead of a popup. If the user can't see it, they'll never say yes.
- kevingadd 4y ago
  They're going to be confused if you say "display 3D graphics", because canvas and WebGL will still work. The website will just be laggier and burn their battery faster. That's not going to make sense to them. "Fingerprinting" is a better approach to the messaging, but is also going to be confusing since if you take that approach, almost all modern permissions are fingerprinting permissions, so now you have the problem of "okay, this website requires fingerprinting class A but not fingerprinting class B" and we expect an ordinary user to understand that somehow?
deelly 4y ago
> In practice, no-one who answers a web permissions dialog truly knows if they have made the correct answer. Counterpoint: if webpage with latest news (for example) immediately asks me to allow notification, access to webcamera and location I definitely know what is correct answer to these dialogs.
- kevingadd 4y ago
  "Do you want to allow example.com to send you notifications" is way more understandable to a layperson than "do you want to allow access to WebGPU" or "do you want to allow access to your graphics card". Especially because they would still have access to canvas and WebGL. Permission prompts are a HUGE user education issue and also a fatigue issue. Rendering is widely used on websites so if users get the prompt constantly they're going to tune it out.
  - account42 4y ago
    You can always word things in a way that the user understands. > Especially because they would still have access to canvas and WebGL. Those should also be behind a (or the same) permission prompt.
tgsovlerkhgsel 4y ago
I think browsers should distinguish more aggressively between "web application", "web site", and "user hostile web site". Many APIs should be gated behind being a web application. This itself could be a permission dialog already, with a big warning that this enables tracking and "no reputable web site will ask for it unless it is clear why this permission is needed - in doubt, choose no". Collect opt-in telemetry. Web sites that claim to be a web application but keep getting denied can then be reclassified as hostile web sites, at which point they not only lose the ability to annoy users with web app permission prompts, but also other privileges that web sites don't need.
- beebeepka 4y ago
  Do you have something specific in mind with your opening paragraph? Because defining what is a web site and what's an app, strikes me as particularly impractical idea. You correctly point out that yes, there are a number of powerful APIs that should be behind permissions. But there are a number of permissions already, so we need to start bundling them and also figure out how to present all this to the regular user. Frankly, I wouldn't know where to begin with all this.
  - tgsovlerkhgsel 4y ago
    News sites are a particular category that I expect to spam people with permission prompts, as they did when notifications became a thing. Without the deterrent of possibly landing in the naughty box, they'd all do it. With it, I still expect some of them to try until they land in the box.
- bagacrap 4y ago
  Clearly if we knew how to perfectly identify user hostile websites we'd not need permissions dialogs at all. Distinguishing between site and app, e.g. via an installation process, is equivalent to a permissions dialog, except that you're now advocating for one giant permission dialog instead of fine-grained ones, which seems like a step backwards.
  - 4y ago

ericflo 4y ago

Look to the cookie fatigue fiasco for how that might turn out. This simple idea is not always the right one.

7to2 4y ago
> [ ] Always choose this option.
epolanski 4y ago
Why fiasco?

7to2 4y ago

It's not that they don't understand it, it's that they don't want the average user to have a convenient way to control this setting. Prompting the user for permission would give the user a very convenient way to keep it disabled for most websites. It's as simple as that. Think about it this way: Which is more tedious: going into the settings and enabling and disabling webGPU every time you need it or a popup? Which way would see you keeping it enabled? Its tyranny of the default with an extra twist :)

miohtama 4y ago

Just don’t use Chrome. There are plenty of alternative web browsers you can choose that are more privacy oriented. You are not Chrome’s customer unless you pay for it - or you have 100% money back guarantee. Demanding features on free product is never going to go anywhere.

nashashmi 4y ago

They are highly paid enough to not work on it and smart enough to thwart suggestions like this with “permission overload issue”. But more frankly, fingerprinting is a whack a mole issue and if it were a real security problem, it would slow feature advancements. And fingerprinting is too unreliable for any real world use.

illiarian 4y ago

Just put WebGL/WebGPU behind permission and the problem is solved. Just put WebUSB behind permission and the problem is solved. Just put WebHID behind permission and the problem is solved. Just put WebMIDI behind permission and the problem is solved. Just put Filesystem Access behind permission and the problem is solved. Just put Sensors behind permission and the problem is solved. Just put Location behind permission and the problem is solved. Just put Camera behind permission and the problem is solved. Just put ... I don't understand why highly paid Google and Firefox developers cannot understand such a simple idea.

ctenb 4y ago
Yes please
shadowgovt 4y ago
Everything except WebGL and WebGPU allows the system to change more state than what is rendered on a screen. Users already expect browsers to change screen contents. That's why WebGPU / WebGL aren't behind a permission block (any moreso than "show images" should be... Hey, remember back in the day when that was a thing?).
rockdoe 4y ago
I can't tell whether you're kidding or not, but this is exactly the path Firefox was advocating: https://blog.karimratib.me/2022/04/23/firefox-webmidi.html https://blog.karimratib.me/2022/04/23/firefox-webmidi.html The page implies it no longer requires permissions, but I just tested and you definitely get a permissions popup, just a different one. WebHID, WebUSB and Filesystem Access are IIRC, "considered harmful" so they won't get implemented. And Sensor support was removed after sites started abusing battery APIs.
- illiarian 4y ago
  > I can't tell whether you're kidding or not, I'm not. It's a bit of a sarcasm (?) listing a subset of APIs that browsers implement (or push forward against objections like hardware APIs) and that all require some sort of permission. > but this is exactly the path Firefox was advocating Originally? Perhaps. Since then Firefox's stance is very much "we can't just pile on more and more permissions for every API because we can't properly explain to the user what the hell is going on, and permission fatigue is a thing"

justinclift 4y ago

> why highly paid Google ... developers "Completely co-incidentally", it's in Google's best interest to be able to fingerprint everyone. So, changing it to actually be privacy friendly while they have the lion's share of the market doesn't seem like it's going to happen without some major external intervention. :/

maigret 4y ago
It's running on Chrome. Google doesn't need fingerprinting. By making it harder for others to fingerprint it actually cements Google position in the ad market.
- justinclift 4y ago
  > It's running on Chrome. Google doesn't need fingerprinting. Are you saying that because you reckon everyone using a Chromium based browser logs into a Google account?

elpocko 4y ago

I do this since forever, but I have to give explicit permission to load and run JS, which solves a lot of other problems as well. Letting any site just willy-nilly load code from whereever and run it on your machine is insane, and it's well worth the effort to manually whitelist every site.

account42 4y ago
uMatrix was and unfortunately still is the best interface for fine-grained opt-in permissions.

kevingadd 4y ago

Saturating the user with permissions requests for every single website they visit is a dead-end idea. We have decades of browser development and UI design history to show that if you saturate the user with nag prompts that don't mean anything to them, they will just mechanically click yes or no (whichever option makes the website work).

codedokode 4y ago
Permission popups can be replaced with an additional permission toolbar or with a button in the address bar user needs to click. This way they won't be annoying and won't require a click to dismiss.
- cyral 4y ago
  Like the site settings page on Chrome, which is in the address bar (clicking the lock icon)? You can set the permissions (including defaults) for like 50 of these APIs.
  - codedokode 4y ago
    You can display only permissions that a page requests, starting from most important ones. For example, toolbar could look like: Enable: [ location ] [ camera ] [ fingerprinting via canvas ] ...
account42 4y ago
We already have extensions for websites that spam the user with unwanted popups and other displays. Those just need to be extended to cover permission abuse and be included by default in all webbrowsers.

WhyNotHugo 4y ago

They probably can understand these concepts, but privacy and anonymity are not their main priorities.

acchow 4y ago

"Be kind. Don't be snarky. Converse curiously. Please don't sneer" HN Guidelines https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html