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yes. there is environmental sustainability and then there is social sustainability. nobody wants to live in a carbon free world if every company is as abusive

yes. there is environmental sustainability and then there is social sustainability. nobody wants to live in a carbon free world if every company is as abusive as Tesla to its employees. and that culture came from Musk himself. the way he treats people does not make for sustainable relationships.

toomuchtodo 4y ago
Tesla the org will outlive Elon. We thank him for his exceptional efforts to accelerate the transition to clean energy and mobility, personal issues and poor behavior aside that need no mention. Just as people like him squeeze others to get as much as they can, we should hope for the same: the largest amount of progress delivered at the lowest amount of harm caused until he’s moved on. “The impossible delivered merely late.” It’s about maintaining everything in tension sustainably. No excuses, there are no heroes. (early Tesla investor because climate change is existential, no current exposure, none planned)
- _hypx 4y ago
  Actually Musk was not the founder of Tesla, nor is Tesla likely to be a major car maker in the future. It is basically a terrible car maker know for its poor quality, on par with Chrysler and the like. It is likely destined to be own by some other car company eventually.
  - rlt 4y ago
    > Actually Musk was not the founder of Tesla Such a tired trope. For all intents and purposes Musk is absolutely a founder of Tesla. > It is basically a terrible car maker know for its poor quality And someone should tell all of the satisfied Tesla customers how terrible quality their cars are https://electrek.co/2022/06/15/tesla-tops-list-most-satisfied-customers-entire-auto-industry/ https://electrek.co/2022/06/15/tesla-tops-list-most-satisfie...
- mradonic 4y ago
  | Tesla the org will outlive Elon. You cannot know that for sure. Maybe we find the holy grail, or maybe the company doesn't survive idiocy of its fake founder.
majormajor 4y ago
I don't think Tesla anything so particularly bad, globally, in terms of employee treatment that it would prevent it from playing a large role in a carbon-free transformation... look at the stuff we'd be replacing in this.
- SyzygistSix 4y ago
  It doesn't even stand out as a particularly poor work nationally.
meowkit 4y ago
Nobody is forced to work at Tesla or SpaceX or any Musk company. I love the mission. I would never work there. They expect grueling hours and a level of commitment that I don't want to give. It is not abusive to voluntarily work somewhere. It is not abusive to have a culture of work that is way more intense than the average workplace. The level of Urban's golem-think [1] that exists around Musk because he himself sometimes says stupid things is seriously unbelievable. [1] https://www.overcomingbias.com/p/tim-urbans-whats-our-problem https://www.overcomingbias.com/p/tim-urbans-whats-our-proble...
- Teever 4y ago
  No, but they're forced to work at other companies that are inspired by Tesla, or outright coerced into adopting the same practices or perish due to market forces.
  - try_the_bass 4y ago
    I don't think you can blame that on Tesla so much as the rest of "the market", if even that. Tesla is not a monopoly, after all.
- elif 4y ago
  SpaceX and Tesla are both in the top 5 of companies new graduates want to work for. SpaceX is number 1 by a large margin.
jonas21 4y ago
> nobody wants to live in a carbon free world if every company is as abusive as Tesla to its employees. What? I would gladly live in such a world, and I imagine most people on the planet would as well.
ajross 4y ago
> nobody wants to live in a carbon free world if every company is as abusive as Tesla to its employees. I don't see that at all. I mean, by any reasonable standard Tesla is... just another employer. It's true that the tenor of the discussion around them is quite frankly batshit. But... they're just a company. Every big corporation has a laundry list of terrible accusations, that's just the way capitalism works. I mean, take Musk and all his nonsense off the board and tell me if you really believe Tesla is a worse place to work at than Walmart or FedEx or UnitedHealth or wherever. I just don't see it. So... yeah. Bring on the carbon-free world of occasionally abusive capitalist overlords, please.
- cma 4y ago
  The carbon free world of point to point passenger rocket travel on methane rockets.
  - enslavedrobot 4y ago
    Carbon neutral.
  - signatoremo 4y ago
    I thought HN of all place is free of faked outrage or ignorance? Even if Starship was the dirtiest of a rocket (it isn’t), a rocket flight is only as dirty as a B777 flight, thousands of them happening everyday. Try this exercise. Measure how much carbon incurred by an activity that you absolutely love, such as playing video game, and see how much you could contribute by not doing it. A lot of activities is worth doing, even if there is inevitably carbon cost, even if you don’t think it’s worth it.
  - mlindner 4y ago
    Fuel is one of the cheapest portions of launching a rocket. There’s much bigger problems to solve on that front until they start launching commonly. Once they do then moving to sustainable methane won’t be an issue. Also what’s the alternative right now? Hydrogen made from the same methane by steam reformation? We don’t even have long range aircraft running on anything but jet fuel, which is more polluting than methane. Nothing about Starship is incompatible with carbon neutral fuels.
DoesntMatter22 4y ago
Ah yes Tesla the worst company in history to some people. Wait till they find out about every other company in existence
mlindner 4y ago
Other than a few very high profile lawsuits I don’t get where the idea comes from that Tesla is “abusive” to its employees. I have friends who work there and they never mention any issue or are trying to leave. I think it’s a combination of: 1. Europeans not familiar with US labor laws and seeing common things in the US, but only seeing them reported from Tesla, and 2. Reporters pouncing on any labor claim against Tesla as if it’s already certain it’s true. For example the well known “Tesla whistleblower” that was widely reported was found by the judge to have lied about many things and was ordered to pay Tesla. Even the notable labor relations board case that Tesla lost was about employees attacking other employees with racial slurs (usually Hispanics on blacks which is common in California) and low level management not doing anything about it. Yes it’s bad but it’s not “Tesla is abusing it’s employees” and Tesla long ago took corrective action as the lawsuit has been going on many years. So I’m still struggling if the perception I’ve seen on the internet about Tesla is just people misinformed of the US or if it’s something else.

toomuchtodo 4y ago

Tesla the org will outlive Elon. We thank him for his exceptional efforts to accelerate the transition to clean energy and mobility, personal issues and poor behavior aside that need no mention. Just as people like him squeeze others to get as much as they can, we should hope for the same: the largest amount of progress delivered at the lowest amount of harm caused until he’s moved on. “The impossible delivered merely late.” It’s about maintaining everything in tension sustainably. No excuses, there are no heroes. (early Tesla investor because climate change is existential, no current exposure, none planned)

_hypx 4y ago
Actually Musk was not the founder of Tesla, nor is Tesla likely to be a major car maker in the future. It is basically a terrible car maker know for its poor quality, on par with Chrysler and the like. It is likely destined to be own by some other car company eventually.
- rlt 4y ago
  > Actually Musk was not the founder of Tesla Such a tired trope. For all intents and purposes Musk is absolutely a founder of Tesla. > It is basically a terrible car maker know for its poor quality And someone should tell all of the satisfied Tesla customers how terrible quality their cars are https://electrek.co/2022/06/15/tesla-tops-list-most-satisfied-customers-entire-auto-industry/ https://electrek.co/2022/06/15/tesla-tops-list-most-satisfie...
mradonic 4y ago
| Tesla the org will outlive Elon. You cannot know that for sure. Maybe we find the holy grail, or maybe the company doesn't survive idiocy of its fake founder.

majormajor 4y ago

I don't think Tesla anything so particularly bad, globally, in terms of employee treatment that it would prevent it from playing a large role in a carbon-free transformation... look at the stuff we'd be replacing in this.

SyzygistSix 4y ago
It doesn't even stand out as a particularly poor work nationally.

meowkit 4y ago

Nobody is forced to work at Tesla or SpaceX or any Musk company. I love the mission. I would never work there. They expect grueling hours and a level of commitment that I don't want to give. It is not abusive to voluntarily work somewhere. It is not abusive to have a culture of work that is way more intense than the average workplace. The level of Urban's golem-think [1] that exists around Musk because he himself sometimes says stupid things is seriously unbelievable. [1] https://www.overcomingbias.com/p/tim-urbans-whats-our-problem https://www.overcomingbias.com/p/tim-urbans-whats-our-proble...

Teever 4y ago
No, but they're forced to work at other companies that are inspired by Tesla, or outright coerced into adopting the same practices or perish due to market forces.
- try_the_bass 4y ago
  I don't think you can blame that on Tesla so much as the rest of "the market", if even that. Tesla is not a monopoly, after all.
elif 4y ago
SpaceX and Tesla are both in the top 5 of companies new graduates want to work for. SpaceX is number 1 by a large margin.

jonas21 4y ago

> nobody wants to live in a carbon free world if every company is as abusive as Tesla to its employees. What? I would gladly live in such a world, and I imagine most people on the planet would as well.

ajross 4y ago

> nobody wants to live in a carbon free world if every company is as abusive as Tesla to its employees. I don't see that at all. I mean, by any reasonable standard Tesla is... just another employer. It's true that the tenor of the discussion around them is quite frankly batshit. But... they're just a company. Every big corporation has a laundry list of terrible accusations, that's just the way capitalism works. I mean, take Musk and all his nonsense off the board and tell me if you really believe Tesla is a worse place to work at than Walmart or FedEx or UnitedHealth or wherever. I just don't see it. So... yeah. Bring on the carbon-free world of occasionally abusive capitalist overlords, please.

cma 4y ago
The carbon free world of point to point passenger rocket travel on methane rockets.
- enslavedrobot 4y ago
  Carbon neutral.
- signatoremo 4y ago
  I thought HN of all place is free of faked outrage or ignorance? Even if Starship was the dirtiest of a rocket (it isn’t), a rocket flight is only as dirty as a B777 flight, thousands of them happening everyday. Try this exercise. Measure how much carbon incurred by an activity that you absolutely love, such as playing video game, and see how much you could contribute by not doing it. A lot of activities is worth doing, even if there is inevitably carbon cost, even if you don’t think it’s worth it.
- mlindner 4y ago
  Fuel is one of the cheapest portions of launching a rocket. There’s much bigger problems to solve on that front until they start launching commonly. Once they do then moving to sustainable methane won’t be an issue. Also what’s the alternative right now? Hydrogen made from the same methane by steam reformation? We don’t even have long range aircraft running on anything but jet fuel, which is more polluting than methane. Nothing about Starship is incompatible with carbon neutral fuels.

DoesntMatter22 4y ago

Ah yes Tesla the worst company in history to some people. Wait till they find out about every other company in existence

mlindner 4y ago

Other than a few very high profile lawsuits I don’t get where the idea comes from that Tesla is “abusive” to its employees. I have friends who work there and they never mention any issue or are trying to leave. I think it’s a combination of: 1. Europeans not familiar with US labor laws and seeing common things in the US, but only seeing them reported from Tesla, and 2. Reporters pouncing on any labor claim against Tesla as if it’s already certain it’s true. For example the well known “Tesla whistleblower” that was widely reported was found by the judge to have lied about many things and was ordered to pay Tesla. Even the notable labor relations board case that Tesla lost was about employees attacking other employees with racial slurs (usually Hispanics on blacks which is common in California) and low level management not doing anything about it. Yes it’s bad but it’s not “Tesla is abusing it’s employees” and Tesla long ago took corrective action as the lawsuit has been going on many years. So I’m still struggling if the perception I’ve seen on the internet about Tesla is just people misinformed of the US or if it’s something else.