4 ms·

The definition of danger is 'able or likely to cause harm or injury.' From Google/Oxford. I said "San Francisco isn't anywhere close to *most dangerous city

by cmh89 4y ago

The definition of danger is 'able or likely to cause harm or injury.' From Google/Oxford. I said "San Francisco isn't anywhere close to *most dangerous city* in the United States." You conflating property crime with violent crime is disingenuous at best on your part.

miles 4y ago
> You conflating property crime with violent crime is disingenuous at best on your part. No, it's just a definition of "dangerous" much closer to Merriam-Websters' first entry for the word[1]: "involving possible injury, pain, harm, or loss" If you do not consider carjackings, break-ins, burglaries, and the like to be dangerous, we simply have different working definitions, that's all. [1] https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dangerous https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dangerous
- cmh89 4y ago
  Does San Francisco have a lot of carjackings, break-ins, and burglaries? I've never heard of San Francisco having frequent carjackings or break-ins, or even burglaries. It's mostly petty theft like smashing a car window or stealing a bike. You're trying to use the amount of petty theft, which does suck, to pretend that San Francisco is a dangerous city, which its not. If you look at just violent crimes, San Francisco isn't in the conversation.
  - miles 4y ago
    > Does San Francisco have a lot of carjackings, break-ins, and burglaries? Vehicle thefts and carjackings spike in major US cities[1]: "The number of carjackings - defined as auto theft or attempted theft by force or threat - rose by 24% in seven cities: Baltimore, Chicago, Denver, Los Angeles, Memphis, Norfolk and San Francisco." Nearly Half of San Franciscans Have Been Victims of Theft, New Poll Says[2] Perhaps most tellingly[3]: "In September 2022, the San Francisco Chronicle reported that a poll of 1,653 city residents found that over the past five years, 45% of San Francisco residents had been the victim of theft and 24% had been either been threatened with violence or had been the victim of a violent crime.[4]" > If you look at just violent crimes If we are shifting the conversation from "dangerous" to "violent", I would certainly agree with you. My concern is similar to that expressed by huevosabio[5] based on his experience in Mexico: "Every crime that goes unprosecuted is an invitation for a repeat crime. This is as true in Juarez as it is in San Francisco." [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-64414985 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-64414985 [2] https://sfstandard.com/criminal-justice/nearly-half-of-san-franciscans-have-been-victims-of-theft-new-poll-says/ https://sfstandard.com/criminal-justice/nearly-half-of-san-f... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_San_Francisco https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_San_Francisco [4] https://www.sfchronicle.com/sf/article/sfnext-poll-crime-sfpd-17439346.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/sf/article/sfnext-poll-crime-sfp... [5] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35457841 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35457841
    - cmh89 4y ago
      >"The number of carjackings - defined as auto theft or attempted theft by force or threat - rose by 24% in seven cities: Baltimore, Chicago, Denver, Los Angeles, Memphis, Norfolk and San Francisco." Cool. If your town has one carjacking, and the next it has two, thats a big increase. So again, I'll repeat, does San Francisco have a lot of carjackings? >Nearly Half of San Franciscans Have Been Victims of Theft, New Poll Says Yes, petty theft is rampant there. >If we are shifting the conversation from "dangerous" to "violent", Just to clarify, we were always talking about violent crimes. Carjacking and break-ins are violent crimes. Petty theft is not. The conversation is not "shifting", you are just applying the word dangerous to situations where it doesn't apply. >My concern is similar to that expressed by huevosabio[5] based on his experience in Mexico: "Every crime that goes unprosecuted is an invitation for a repeat crime. This is as true in Juarez as it is in San Francisco." That's irrelevant to our conversation.
      - CTmystery 4y ago
        There's really no good stats on SF car jackings, unfortunately. The SFPD crime data is too coarse to discriminate carjackings from other car theft. I think the best you could do, unfortunately, is comb news stories and try to get a sense of the frequency. A quick google search turns these up: Dec 22: https://www.sfexaminer.com/news/crime/man-shot-during-attempted-carjacking-suspects-sought/article_2ce80926-824a-11ed-80b9-378a063c6e16.html https://www.sfexaminer.com/news/crime/man-shot-during-attemp... Feb 6th: https://www.mtdemocrat.com/news/assault-carjacking-suspect-arrested-in-san-francisco/ https://www.mtdemocrat.com/news/assault-carjacking-suspect-a... Feb 21st (and mentions a second Nov 7th): https://www.kron4.com/news/bay-area/armed-carjackings-near-sf-hospital-cause-safety-concerns/ https://www.kron4.com/news/bay-area/armed-carjackings-near-s... Mar 1st: https://sfstandard.com/criminal-justice/teens-carjack-couple-on-posh-sf-street-lead-cops-on-chase-over-bay-bridge/ https://sfstandard.com/criminal-justice/teens-carjack-couple... You could perhaps automate something to give you a proxy statistic. Hell, it may end up a better statistic than what the SFPD has.
      - miles 4y ago
        I did the math. SF is 2.6x more dangerous per sq mi than any other US city https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35496700 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35496700 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/105IDODri5Qbi3Mj-SGHFUwkfEzt4pAXA4qsprHRzdmo/edit#gid=0 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/105IDODri5Qbi3Mj-SGHF...

by cmh89 4y ago

miles 4y ago

> You conflating property crime with violent crime is disingenuous at best on your part. No, it's just a definition of "dangerous" much closer to Merriam-Websters' first entry for the word[1]: "involving possible injury, pain, harm, or loss" If you do not consider carjackings, break-ins, burglaries, and the like to be dangerous, we simply have different working definitions, that's all. [1] https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dangerous https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dangerous

cmh89 4y ago
Does San Francisco have a lot of carjackings, break-ins, and burglaries? I've never heard of San Francisco having frequent carjackings or break-ins, or even burglaries. It's mostly petty theft like smashing a car window or stealing a bike. You're trying to use the amount of petty theft, which does suck, to pretend that San Francisco is a dangerous city, which its not. If you look at just violent crimes, San Francisco isn't in the conversation.
- miles 4y ago
  > Does San Francisco have a lot of carjackings, break-ins, and burglaries? Vehicle thefts and carjackings spike in major US cities[1]: "The number of carjackings - defined as auto theft or attempted theft by force or threat - rose by 24% in seven cities: Baltimore, Chicago, Denver, Los Angeles, Memphis, Norfolk and San Francisco." Nearly Half of San Franciscans Have Been Victims of Theft, New Poll Says[2] Perhaps most tellingly[3]: "In September 2022, the San Francisco Chronicle reported that a poll of 1,653 city residents found that over the past five years, 45% of San Francisco residents had been the victim of theft and 24% had been either been threatened with violence or had been the victim of a violent crime.[4]" > If you look at just violent crimes If we are shifting the conversation from "dangerous" to "violent", I would certainly agree with you. My concern is similar to that expressed by huevosabio[5] based on his experience in Mexico: "Every crime that goes unprosecuted is an invitation for a repeat crime. This is as true in Juarez as it is in San Francisco." [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-64414985 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-64414985 [2] https://sfstandard.com/criminal-justice/nearly-half-of-san-franciscans-have-been-victims-of-theft-new-poll-says/ https://sfstandard.com/criminal-justice/nearly-half-of-san-f... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_San_Francisco https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_San_Francisco [4] https://www.sfchronicle.com/sf/article/sfnext-poll-crime-sfpd-17439346.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/sf/article/sfnext-poll-crime-sfp... [5] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35457841 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35457841
  - cmh89 4y ago
    >"The number of carjackings - defined as auto theft or attempted theft by force or threat - rose by 24% in seven cities: Baltimore, Chicago, Denver, Los Angeles, Memphis, Norfolk and San Francisco." Cool. If your town has one carjacking, and the next it has two, thats a big increase. So again, I'll repeat, does San Francisco have a lot of carjackings? >Nearly Half of San Franciscans Have Been Victims of Theft, New Poll Says Yes, petty theft is rampant there. >If we are shifting the conversation from "dangerous" to "violent", Just to clarify, we were always talking about violent crimes. Carjacking and break-ins are violent crimes. Petty theft is not. The conversation is not "shifting", you are just applying the word dangerous to situations where it doesn't apply. >My concern is similar to that expressed by huevosabio[5] based on his experience in Mexico: "Every crime that goes unprosecuted is an invitation for a repeat crime. This is as true in Juarez as it is in San Francisco." That's irrelevant to our conversation.
    - CTmystery 4y ago
      There's really no good stats on SF car jackings, unfortunately. The SFPD crime data is too coarse to discriminate carjackings from other car theft. I think the best you could do, unfortunately, is comb news stories and try to get a sense of the frequency. A quick google search turns these up: Dec 22: https://www.sfexaminer.com/news/crime/man-shot-during-attempted-carjacking-suspects-sought/article_2ce80926-824a-11ed-80b9-378a063c6e16.html https://www.sfexaminer.com/news/crime/man-shot-during-attemp... Feb 6th: https://www.mtdemocrat.com/news/assault-carjacking-suspect-arrested-in-san-francisco/ https://www.mtdemocrat.com/news/assault-carjacking-suspect-a... Feb 21st (and mentions a second Nov 7th): https://www.kron4.com/news/bay-area/armed-carjackings-near-sf-hospital-cause-safety-concerns/ https://www.kron4.com/news/bay-area/armed-carjackings-near-s... Mar 1st: https://sfstandard.com/criminal-justice/teens-carjack-couple-on-posh-sf-street-lead-cops-on-chase-over-bay-bridge/ https://sfstandard.com/criminal-justice/teens-carjack-couple... You could perhaps automate something to give you a proxy statistic. Hell, it may end up a better statistic than what the SFPD has.
    - miles 4y ago
      I did the math. SF is 2.6x more dangerous per sq mi than any other US city https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35496700 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35496700 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/105IDODri5Qbi3Mj-SGHFUwkfEzt4pAXA4qsprHRzdmo/edit#gid=0 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/105IDODri5Qbi3Mj-SGHF...