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> It’s an island of free, prosperous and democratic Chinese people. It’s a repudiation of everything the CCP stands for. This is really irrelevant to the confl

> It’s an island of free, prosperous and democratic Chinese people. It’s a repudiation of everything the CCP stands for. This is really irrelevant to the conflict, which goes back long before Taiwan democratized (which was only in the late 1990s). The conflict is relatively simple. Taiwan was a province of China, and still is a part of the Republic of China. The People's Republic of China sees itself as the successor state of the ROC, and is also seen as such by the rest of the world. That means that the PRC considers Taiwan to be part of its rightful, legal territory. The issue of the territorial integrity of China is especially important in modern China because of the history of colonialism and invasion in the 19th and 20th Centuries. Both the Nationalists and Communists dreamed of expelling the colonial powers and warlords, reuniting China, and finally establishing a fully sovereign, independent state. The separation of Taiwan from the mainland, as a result of the Chinese civil war, is seen as the last vestige of the era in which China was weak and not unified.

ajmurmann 4y ago
> and is also seen as such by the rest of the world Is this actually true? It seems that most governments accept the formal definition in a diplomatic sense because they want to avoid conflict with China. However, it seems clear that at least most western countries see Taiwan as its own country in practice. From my experience the population of western countries is either surprised to hear that Taiwan isn't supposed to be its own country or see this as some bizarre concession to the power-hungry CCP we make to keep them peaceful.
- DiogenesKynikos 4y ago
  > Is this actually true? Yes. The governments of the world switched recognition from the Republic of China to the People's Republic of China, and transferred "China's" UN Security Council seat to the PRC. > However, it seems clear that at least most western countries see Taiwan as its own country in practice. They maintain informal ties, but not formal diplomatic ties. Even the PRC has informal ties with the ROC. > surprised to hear that Taiwan isn't supposed to be its own country It's perhaps surprising, given Taiwan's de facto independence, but legally, it's not that surprising. Taiwan was a part of China, and it's difficult to define a point in time at which it ceased to be so. Both the ROC and PRC agreed that Taiwan was part of China for decades after the end of the civil war. The Taiwanese independence movement, which has become much stronger over the last 20 years, has changed sentiment in Taiwan itself. However, it would be a major step for other countries to decide that Taiwan no longer legally belongs to China.
  - another_story 4y ago
    > However, it would be a major step for other countries to decide that Taiwan no longer legally belongs to China. What one means by belongs to China is another matter. Not saying you have, but people will conflate the government of China with China. Taiwan does not belong the current ruling government of China and you will not find many governments which say so.
    - DiogenesKynikos 4y ago
      In terms of international law, the distinction you're drawing between China and the PRC is irrelevant. Legally speaking, Taiwan was recognized as part of China. The fact that there was a revolution in China does not change that, legally speaking. If such a principle were to be accepted, that a country's territory is called into question every time there's a revolution, it would open a Pandora's box. Recognizing Taiwan as a formally independent state would be a major step, and it would open up all sorts of previously settled questions about what national sovereignty means. > you will not find many governments which say so You will find almost no governments that dispute it. Again, recognizing the formal independence of a territory that has been internationally recognized as part of China would be a major break with previous conceptions of national sovereignty.
      - another_story 4y ago
        According to whose international law? The distinction is at the heart of the issue depending which country you ask.
        DiogenesKynikos 4y ago
        There is no legal distinction between the PRC and China. The PRC is China on the international stage. As far as I know, no country makes a distinction between China and the state that runs it. There is a handful of countries in the world that consider the ROC (i.e., Taiwan) to be the true government of China - countries such as the Vatican City and the Marshall Islands. As I understand it, the Vatican still recognizes the ROC because that's a negotiating chip it can play in its dispute with the PRC over how bishops are named in China.
verdverm 4y ago
Given it has been so long and they are now so different, why is reunification even necessary at this point? (Other than the CCP wants to control Taiwan based on historical lines) Why is the CCP so intent on controlling the land of another country? Most people practically consider Taiwan independent, even if the "agreements" around it say something else. They have their own government, flag, military, trade agreements, and more
- DiogenesKynikos 4y ago
  > Why is the CCP so intent on controlling the land of another country? The way you frame the question already suggests that you're not interested in why China (not just the CCP - this is a broad sentiment inside China) sees things the way it does. Taiwan is not seen as "another country" in China. It's seen as a Chinese province that is temporarily separated from China due to the civil war. This was also the view of successive Taiwanese governments for decades after the civil war ended, and it shouldn't be surprising that people on the mainland still see it this way.
  - unaindz 4y ago
    > So if both China and Taiwan wanted and want to be united why don't they? I was gonna ask that but researched a little bit of history first. So the CCP won the civil war against the government at the time, the PRC, which retreated to Taiwan. What I didn't get is that both governments consider China to include the Taiwan territory, they just don't agree on which is the legitimate government. Please correct me if I'm wrong. On my foreigner opinion though is too late for uniting china like that because when you split the population for a long enough time the culture will evolve in a different way between those parts.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - selimthegrim 4y ago
      The ROC, not PRC
deleted 4y ago
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throwaway66383 4y ago
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ajmurmann 4y ago

> and is also seen as such by the rest of the world Is this actually true? It seems that most governments accept the formal definition in a diplomatic sense because they want to avoid conflict with China. However, it seems clear that at least most western countries see Taiwan as its own country in practice. From my experience the population of western countries is either surprised to hear that Taiwan isn't supposed to be its own country or see this as some bizarre concession to the power-hungry CCP we make to keep them peaceful.

DiogenesKynikos 4y ago
> Is this actually true? Yes. The governments of the world switched recognition from the Republic of China to the People's Republic of China, and transferred "China's" UN Security Council seat to the PRC. > However, it seems clear that at least most western countries see Taiwan as its own country in practice. They maintain informal ties, but not formal diplomatic ties. Even the PRC has informal ties with the ROC. > surprised to hear that Taiwan isn't supposed to be its own country It's perhaps surprising, given Taiwan's de facto independence, but legally, it's not that surprising. Taiwan was a part of China, and it's difficult to define a point in time at which it ceased to be so. Both the ROC and PRC agreed that Taiwan was part of China for decades after the end of the civil war. The Taiwanese independence movement, which has become much stronger over the last 20 years, has changed sentiment in Taiwan itself. However, it would be a major step for other countries to decide that Taiwan no longer legally belongs to China.
- another_story 4y ago
  > However, it would be a major step for other countries to decide that Taiwan no longer legally belongs to China. What one means by belongs to China is another matter. Not saying you have, but people will conflate the government of China with China. Taiwan does not belong the current ruling government of China and you will not find many governments which say so.
  - DiogenesKynikos 4y ago
    In terms of international law, the distinction you're drawing between China and the PRC is irrelevant. Legally speaking, Taiwan was recognized as part of China. The fact that there was a revolution in China does not change that, legally speaking. If such a principle were to be accepted, that a country's territory is called into question every time there's a revolution, it would open a Pandora's box. Recognizing Taiwan as a formally independent state would be a major step, and it would open up all sorts of previously settled questions about what national sovereignty means. > you will not find many governments which say so You will find almost no governments that dispute it. Again, recognizing the formal independence of a territory that has been internationally recognized as part of China would be a major break with previous conceptions of national sovereignty.
    - another_story 4y ago
      According to whose international law? The distinction is at the heart of the issue depending which country you ask.
      - DiogenesKynikos 4y ago
        There is no legal distinction between the PRC and China. The PRC is China on the international stage. As far as I know, no country makes a distinction between China and the state that runs it. There is a handful of countries in the world that consider the ROC (i.e., Taiwan) to be the true government of China - countries such as the Vatican City and the Marshall Islands. As I understand it, the Vatican still recognizes the ROC because that's a negotiating chip it can play in its dispute with the PRC over how bishops are named in China.

verdverm 4y ago

Given it has been so long and they are now so different, why is reunification even necessary at this point? (Other than the CCP wants to control Taiwan based on historical lines) Why is the CCP so intent on controlling the land of another country? Most people practically consider Taiwan independent, even if the "agreements" around it say something else. They have their own government, flag, military, trade agreements, and more

DiogenesKynikos 4y ago
> Why is the CCP so intent on controlling the land of another country? The way you frame the question already suggests that you're not interested in why China (not just the CCP - this is a broad sentiment inside China) sees things the way it does. Taiwan is not seen as "another country" in China. It's seen as a Chinese province that is temporarily separated from China due to the civil war. This was also the view of successive Taiwanese governments for decades after the civil war ended, and it shouldn't be surprising that people on the mainland still see it this way.
- unaindz 4y ago
  > So if both China and Taiwan wanted and want to be united why don't they? I was gonna ask that but researched a little bit of history first. So the CCP won the civil war against the government at the time, the PRC, which retreated to Taiwan. What I didn't get is that both governments consider China to include the Taiwan territory, they just don't agree on which is the legitimate government. Please correct me if I'm wrong. On my foreigner opinion though is too late for uniting china like that because when you split the population for a long enough time the culture will evolve in a different way between those parts.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - selimthegrim 4y ago
    The ROC, not PRC

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

throwaway66383 4y ago

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