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From what I understand, it is an affront to their regime. It’s an island of free, prosperous and democratic Chinese people. It’s a repudiation of everything the

From what I understand, it is an affront to their regime. It’s an island of free, prosperous and democratic Chinese people. It’s a repudiation of everything the CCP stands for. In a very real sense, Taiwan is not a separate country, but a unconquered territory from the Civil War, the last bastion of the pre-1949 Republic of China, and a symbol of what could have been for all of China. Sure there are geopolitical reasons as well, but The CCP very much does not want the living proof that they are not necessary to be sitting 100 miles off their coast. If there were ever a real democratic movement in China it would draw huge cultural inspiration from Taiwan.

DiogenesKynikos 4y ago
> It’s an island of free, prosperous and democratic Chinese people. It’s a repudiation of everything the CCP stands for. This is really irrelevant to the conflict, which goes back long before Taiwan democratized (which was only in the late 1990s). The conflict is relatively simple. Taiwan was a province of China, and still is a part of the Republic of China. The People's Republic of China sees itself as the successor state of the ROC, and is also seen as such by the rest of the world. That means that the PRC considers Taiwan to be part of its rightful, legal territory. The issue of the territorial integrity of China is especially important in modern China because of the history of colonialism and invasion in the 19th and 20th Centuries. Both the Nationalists and Communists dreamed of expelling the colonial powers and warlords, reuniting China, and finally establishing a fully sovereign, independent state. The separation of Taiwan from the mainland, as a result of the Chinese civil war, is seen as the last vestige of the era in which China was weak and not unified.
- ajmurmann 4y ago
  > and is also seen as such by the rest of the world Is this actually true? It seems that most governments accept the formal definition in a diplomatic sense because they want to avoid conflict with China. However, it seems clear that at least most western countries see Taiwan as its own country in practice. From my experience the population of western countries is either surprised to hear that Taiwan isn't supposed to be its own country or see this as some bizarre concession to the power-hungry CCP we make to keep them peaceful.
  - DiogenesKynikos 4y ago
    > Is this actually true? Yes. The governments of the world switched recognition from the Republic of China to the People's Republic of China, and transferred "China's" UN Security Council seat to the PRC. > However, it seems clear that at least most western countries see Taiwan as its own country in practice. They maintain informal ties, but not formal diplomatic ties. Even the PRC has informal ties with the ROC. > surprised to hear that Taiwan isn't supposed to be its own country It's perhaps surprising, given Taiwan's de facto independence, but legally, it's not that surprising. Taiwan was a part of China, and it's difficult to define a point in time at which it ceased to be so. Both the ROC and PRC agreed that Taiwan was part of China for decades after the end of the civil war. The Taiwanese independence movement, which has become much stronger over the last 20 years, has changed sentiment in Taiwan itself. However, it would be a major step for other countries to decide that Taiwan no longer legally belongs to China.
    - another_story 4y ago
      > However, it would be a major step for other countries to decide that Taiwan no longer legally belongs to China. What one means by belongs to China is another matter. Not saying you have, but people will conflate the government of China with China. Taiwan does not belong the current ruling government of China and you will not find many governments which say so.
      - DiogenesKynikos 4y ago
        In terms of international law, the distinction you're drawing between China and the PRC is irrelevant. Legally speaking, Taiwan was recognized as part of China. The fact that there was a revolution in China does not change that, legally speaking. If such a principle were to be accepted, that a country's territory is called into question every time there's a revolution, it would open a Pandora's box. Recognizing Taiwan as a formally independent state would be a major step, and it would open up all sorts of previously settled questions about what national sovereignty means. > you will not find many governments which say so You will find almost no governments that dispute it. Again, recognizing the formal independence of a territory that has been internationally recognized as part of China would be a major break with previous conceptions of national sovereignty.
- verdverm 4y ago
  Given it has been so long and they are now so different, why is reunification even necessary at this point? (Other than the CCP wants to control Taiwan based on historical lines) Why is the CCP so intent on controlling the land of another country? Most people practically consider Taiwan independent, even if the "agreements" around it say something else. They have their own government, flag, military, trade agreements, and more
  - DiogenesKynikos 4y ago
    > Why is the CCP so intent on controlling the land of another country? The way you frame the question already suggests that you're not interested in why China (not just the CCP - this is a broad sentiment inside China) sees things the way it does. Taiwan is not seen as "another country" in China. It's seen as a Chinese province that is temporarily separated from China due to the civil war. This was also the view of successive Taiwanese governments for decades after the civil war ended, and it shouldn't be surprising that people on the mainland still see it this way.
    - unaindz 4y ago
      > So if both China and Taiwan wanted and want to be united why don't they? I was gonna ask that but researched a little bit of history first. So the CCP won the civil war against the government at the time, the PRC, which retreated to Taiwan. What I didn't get is that both governments consider China to include the Taiwan territory, they just don't agree on which is the legitimate government. Please correct me if I'm wrong. On my foreigner opinion though is too late for uniting china like that because when you split the population for a long enough time the culture will evolve in a different way between those parts.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - selimthegrim 4y ago
        The ROC, not PRC
- deleted 4y ago
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- throwaway66383 4y ago
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victorbstan 4y ago
I think ideology plays less of a role than is assumed. I would posture “resources” or access to resources as the definitive driver no matter if the rhetoric is ideological or religious, etc. Taiwan manufactures a lot of electronics that China does not. It has know-how and capital (means of production) of things that are important to China, China cannot manufacture, and USA, Chinas rival, has access to —- and also relies on. It is the queen on the geopolitical chessboard. But it is that because of its “resources”.
- nirav72 4y ago
  > It has know-how and capital (means of production) of things that are important to China It has the capital. Not the Know-how or expertise. If it did, it wouldn't be stuck manufacturing lower end semi-conductors. In a hypothetical scenario - where China does manage to successfully invade the island, they won't be able to keep the foundries running for long. Because most of the design, IP, machinery and chemicals used in the process are supplied by the U.S and it's allies.
  - jacquesm 4y ago
    I would not expect those foundries to live for 30 seconds past the point where Chinese boots land on Taiwanese soil.
    - nirav72 4y ago
      Yeah, it's entirely possible the U.S and Taiwan have plans in place to initiate a process to cripple the foundries if an invasion is imminent or underway.
  - arroz 4y ago
    Stuck manufacturing low end semiconductors? Taiwan? Low end? What?
    - nirav72 4y ago
      Might want to read the above comment again. :)
analyst74 4y ago
This is a very western view on things. Chinese people from mainland cares much less about democracy than citizens from western countries. The primary motivation for Chinese people to want reunification is that it's one of the last remaining symbols of colonialism.
- adastra22 4y ago
  Chinese people in Taiwan care A LOT about democracy, however. Despite the CCP's protestations to the contrary, there is nothing inherently undemocratic about Chinese culture, as Taiwan clearly demonstrates. The possibility that those ideas and that culture might spread to the mainland is a very real threat to the PRC's leadership.
- eric-hu 4y ago
  Just so you know, I have friends and family from Taiwan. Some left Taiwan, and some stayed their whole lives. Some are KMT and some are DPP. None of them want to reunite with China. Even the KMT ones just believe the KMT has a better plan for avoiding reunification. Some left Taiwan because they're afraid of a forced reunification. They care about democracy in Taiwan.
  - analyst74 4y ago
    Of course Taiwanese people care about their way of lives, and they have full right to expect and defend that. The problem is sadly much more complicated than "dictatorship wants to subjugate democracy". Simplified thinking is what the elites from China, Taiwan and the US wants you to think, so powers can be held onto and wars be justified.
throwA29B 4y ago
Ugh... I read the same about Ukraine being a beacon of freedom, democracy, and prosperity and Putin being extremely mad because Russia has none of that, and Russians would be pointing fingers and asking questions... Which is utter rubbish. I suggest you to educate yourself on the topic.
- oneshtein 4y ago
  Russian Federation tries to roll back rename of (Kievan) Russia to Ukraine. Actual history of Russian Federation/USSR/Russian Empire/Moscow Tsardom is well guarded secret, so lot of heads are bumping against the wall trying to understand how Russia (now Ukraine) turned into Russian Federation (contains no Russia).

DiogenesKynikos 4y ago

> It’s an island of free, prosperous and democratic Chinese people. It’s a repudiation of everything the CCP stands for. This is really irrelevant to the conflict, which goes back long before Taiwan democratized (which was only in the late 1990s). The conflict is relatively simple. Taiwan was a province of China, and still is a part of the Republic of China. The People's Republic of China sees itself as the successor state of the ROC, and is also seen as such by the rest of the world. That means that the PRC considers Taiwan to be part of its rightful, legal territory. The issue of the territorial integrity of China is especially important in modern China because of the history of colonialism and invasion in the 19th and 20th Centuries. Both the Nationalists and Communists dreamed of expelling the colonial powers and warlords, reuniting China, and finally establishing a fully sovereign, independent state. The separation of Taiwan from the mainland, as a result of the Chinese civil war, is seen as the last vestige of the era in which China was weak and not unified.

ajmurmann 4y ago
> and is also seen as such by the rest of the world Is this actually true? It seems that most governments accept the formal definition in a diplomatic sense because they want to avoid conflict with China. However, it seems clear that at least most western countries see Taiwan as its own country in practice. From my experience the population of western countries is either surprised to hear that Taiwan isn't supposed to be its own country or see this as some bizarre concession to the power-hungry CCP we make to keep them peaceful.
- DiogenesKynikos 4y ago
  > Is this actually true? Yes. The governments of the world switched recognition from the Republic of China to the People's Republic of China, and transferred "China's" UN Security Council seat to the PRC. > However, it seems clear that at least most western countries see Taiwan as its own country in practice. They maintain informal ties, but not formal diplomatic ties. Even the PRC has informal ties with the ROC. > surprised to hear that Taiwan isn't supposed to be its own country It's perhaps surprising, given Taiwan's de facto independence, but legally, it's not that surprising. Taiwan was a part of China, and it's difficult to define a point in time at which it ceased to be so. Both the ROC and PRC agreed that Taiwan was part of China for decades after the end of the civil war. The Taiwanese independence movement, which has become much stronger over the last 20 years, has changed sentiment in Taiwan itself. However, it would be a major step for other countries to decide that Taiwan no longer legally belongs to China.
  - another_story 4y ago
    > However, it would be a major step for other countries to decide that Taiwan no longer legally belongs to China. What one means by belongs to China is another matter. Not saying you have, but people will conflate the government of China with China. Taiwan does not belong the current ruling government of China and you will not find many governments which say so.
    - DiogenesKynikos 4y ago
      In terms of international law, the distinction you're drawing between China and the PRC is irrelevant. Legally speaking, Taiwan was recognized as part of China. The fact that there was a revolution in China does not change that, legally speaking. If such a principle were to be accepted, that a country's territory is called into question every time there's a revolution, it would open a Pandora's box. Recognizing Taiwan as a formally independent state would be a major step, and it would open up all sorts of previously settled questions about what national sovereignty means. > you will not find many governments which say so You will find almost no governments that dispute it. Again, recognizing the formal independence of a territory that has been internationally recognized as part of China would be a major break with previous conceptions of national sovereignty.
verdverm 4y ago
Given it has been so long and they are now so different, why is reunification even necessary at this point? (Other than the CCP wants to control Taiwan based on historical lines) Why is the CCP so intent on controlling the land of another country? Most people practically consider Taiwan independent, even if the "agreements" around it say something else. They have their own government, flag, military, trade agreements, and more
- DiogenesKynikos 4y ago
  > Why is the CCP so intent on controlling the land of another country? The way you frame the question already suggests that you're not interested in why China (not just the CCP - this is a broad sentiment inside China) sees things the way it does. Taiwan is not seen as "another country" in China. It's seen as a Chinese province that is temporarily separated from China due to the civil war. This was also the view of successive Taiwanese governments for decades after the civil war ended, and it shouldn't be surprising that people on the mainland still see it this way.
  - unaindz 4y ago
    > So if both China and Taiwan wanted and want to be united why don't they? I was gonna ask that but researched a little bit of history first. So the CCP won the civil war against the government at the time, the PRC, which retreated to Taiwan. What I didn't get is that both governments consider China to include the Taiwan territory, they just don't agree on which is the legitimate government. Please correct me if I'm wrong. On my foreigner opinion though is too late for uniting china like that because when you split the population for a long enough time the culture will evolve in a different way between those parts.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - selimthegrim 4y ago
      The ROC, not PRC
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
throwaway66383 4y ago
[dead]

victorbstan 4y ago

I think ideology plays less of a role than is assumed. I would posture “resources” or access to resources as the definitive driver no matter if the rhetoric is ideological or religious, etc. Taiwan manufactures a lot of electronics that China does not. It has know-how and capital (means of production) of things that are important to China, China cannot manufacture, and USA, Chinas rival, has access to —- and also relies on. It is the queen on the geopolitical chessboard. But it is that because of its “resources”.

nirav72 4y ago
> It has know-how and capital (means of production) of things that are important to China It has the capital. Not the Know-how or expertise. If it did, it wouldn't be stuck manufacturing lower end semi-conductors. In a hypothetical scenario - where China does manage to successfully invade the island, they won't be able to keep the foundries running for long. Because most of the design, IP, machinery and chemicals used in the process are supplied by the U.S and it's allies.
- jacquesm 4y ago
  I would not expect those foundries to live for 30 seconds past the point where Chinese boots land on Taiwanese soil.
  - nirav72 4y ago
    Yeah, it's entirely possible the U.S and Taiwan have plans in place to initiate a process to cripple the foundries if an invasion is imminent or underway.
- arroz 4y ago
  Stuck manufacturing low end semiconductors? Taiwan? Low end? What?
  - nirav72 4y ago
    Might want to read the above comment again. :)

analyst74 4y ago

This is a very western view on things. Chinese people from mainland cares much less about democracy than citizens from western countries. The primary motivation for Chinese people to want reunification is that it's one of the last remaining symbols of colonialism.

adastra22 4y ago
Chinese people in Taiwan care A LOT about democracy, however. Despite the CCP's protestations to the contrary, there is nothing inherently undemocratic about Chinese culture, as Taiwan clearly demonstrates. The possibility that those ideas and that culture might spread to the mainland is a very real threat to the PRC's leadership.
eric-hu 4y ago
Just so you know, I have friends and family from Taiwan. Some left Taiwan, and some stayed their whole lives. Some are KMT and some are DPP. None of them want to reunite with China. Even the KMT ones just believe the KMT has a better plan for avoiding reunification. Some left Taiwan because they're afraid of a forced reunification. They care about democracy in Taiwan.
- analyst74 4y ago
  Of course Taiwanese people care about their way of lives, and they have full right to expect and defend that. The problem is sadly much more complicated than "dictatorship wants to subjugate democracy". Simplified thinking is what the elites from China, Taiwan and the US wants you to think, so powers can be held onto and wars be justified.

throwA29B 4y ago

Ugh... I read the same about Ukraine being a beacon of freedom, democracy, and prosperity and Putin being extremely mad because Russia has none of that, and Russians would be pointing fingers and asking questions... Which is utter rubbish. I suggest you to educate yourself on the topic.

oneshtein 4y ago
Russian Federation tries to roll back rename of (Kievan) Russia to Ukraine. Actual history of Russian Federation/USSR/Russian Empire/Moscow Tsardom is well guarded secret, so lot of heads are bumping against the wall trying to understand how Russia (now Ukraine) turned into Russian Federation (contains no Russia).