4 ms·

Idaho's great, just don't be anything but white or straight, or god forbid don't be a trans kid since the state government just barely averted banning appropria

Idaho's great, just don't be anything but white or straight, or god forbid don't be a trans kid since the state government just barely averted banning appropriate healthcare for teenagers there. Plus they have a sweet setup since they're the 18th-most dependent state on Federal aid, so they'll glad take money from train-wreck states like California, they just don't want the people.

prottog 4y ago
> appropriate healthcare for teenagers You're begging the question. Reasonable, empathetic people are capable of thinking that "gender-affirming care" is an ideologically-driven phenomenon that does more harm than good. > Plus they have a sweet setup since they're the 18th-most dependent state on Federal aid Do you feel the same way about Virginia (second highest per capita federal balance of payments), New Mexico (4th), or Maine (9th)? They're all blue states that receive a lot more from the federal government than they pay in. Do you also feel the same way about high income earners paying more than they get back? Because effectively that's what you're describing. California has a lot of high incomes and because the federal government does a lot of redistributing via taxation, the state as a whole pays more than it gets back. Though if you look at the per capita data[0], it works out to a few hundred bucks a year. It's also worth mentioning that since Covid, every single state has received more than it paid, and in aggregate California the most by far (which makes sense, since it's the most populous state). So California too has a sweet setup. Implicit behind your sentiment is the idea that the "train-wreck" policies in California is causative of the high incomes that has it pay more than it gets back from the federal government. That is, your argument paraphrased is that conservative Idahoans can't criticize progressive Californians since California with its progressive policies has high incomes that pay for some of Idaho's bills via redistributed federal taxation. I find that assumption unpersuasive. [0]: https://rockinst.org/issue-areas/fiscal-analysis/balance-of-payments-portal/ https://rockinst.org/issue-areas/fiscal-analysis/balance-of-...
- Eisenstein 4y ago
  > Reasonable, empathetic people are capable of thinking that "gender-affirming care" is an ideologically-driven phenomenon that does more harm than good. Reasonable, empathetic people who have no experience with an issue personally should mind their own damn business regarding other people's medical decisions, especially when they themselves are actually, demonstrably (not suspectedly) ideologically motivated.
  - mrangle 4y ago
    >Reasonable, empathetic people who have no experience with an issue personally should mind their own damn business regarding other people's medical decisions, especially when they themselves are actually, demonstrably (not suspectedly) ideologically motivated. Sorry, kids don't get to make medical decisions and adults don't get to make harmful decisions for them. Your rant is borderline suited to an adult, and no one else. Last, imagine couching anti-child castration and mutilation as "ideological". Competent adults label this position to as sanity.
    - Eisenstein 4y ago
      They aren't your kids and you have no say in how they are treated medically so it is still none of your business. No one is castrating children. These are medically accepted practices and you are not a practicing physician and making that comparison is unhinged. Also, plenty of babies are sexually altered when their sex is undeterminable would you advocate not doing that? Leave medicine to physicians and their patients and stop putting your ideology and religion and gender anxiety on kids that aren't yours.
    - ofcourseyoudo 4y ago
      >adults don't get to make harmful decisions for them Actually, adults that are the parents of children get to make all sorts of decisions for children, harmful and not harmful. It's literally none of your business.
    - howinteresting 4y ago
      > adults don't get to make harmful decisions for them I believe exposing children to organized religion is inherently harmful because it inhibits the development of a scientific, evidence-based temperament that I think is an important part of good moral character. Yet billions of people drag their children to churches, mosques and temples every day.
- howinteresting 4y ago
  > Reasonable, empathetic people are capable of thinking that "gender-affirming care" is an ideologically-driven phenomenon that does more harm than good. The only way it is possible for a reasonable, empathetic person to believe that the state government banning GAC is good, is if they're stupid. Which is ok to some degree, many people are stupid.
  - all2 4y ago
    If the point of gender affirming care (GAC) is to improve the mental health outcomes of the one being cared for, then it is a colossal waste of time. Mental health outcomes do not demonstrably improve after a person is placed on HRT and had their genitalia suitably modified. In fact, their long term health outcomes decline significantly later in life [0]. The suicide rate of transgender individuals is about 40%. This does not take into account whether they received GAC or not [1]. Per [0], even GAC does not improve late life all cause morbidity. I oppose gender affirming care on the grounds that it does not effectively improve a person's life (which we can see over a 30 year period in [0]) and that it often requires damaging the delicate balance of the biological machine that is the human body. If that makes me "stupid", so be it. [0] https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885 https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal... [1] https://www.thetrevorproject.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/The-Trevor-Project-National-Survey-Results-2020.pdf https://www.thetrevorproject.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/... << Warning, PDF.
    - howinteresting 4y ago
      Correct, that makes you stupid. Your premise is wrong (the correct endpoint is satisfaction and regret rates, since there are many confounding factors with something like mental health), your data doesn't show why you think it shows (the Sweden study was done in a time when the Swedish government mandated sterilization for trans people), and GAC changes the balance of the body much less than, say, lithium. Next question?
      - all2 4y ago
        GAC, by definition, sterilizes the person. Both on the hormonal front and, if they have bottom surgery, physically as well. HRT vs lithium? Dunno, I'm not a doctor. I do know that exogenous hormones can cause a body to stop producing the hormone, even at sub-clinical levels. I also know that GAC surgeries cannot be undone. But you can stop taking lithium. And all of this in the face of 40+% suicide rate that isn't affected by GAC in the slightest. Who is the ideological one here?
- ofcourseyoudo 4y ago
  >Implicit behind your sentiment is the idea that the "train-wreck" policies in California is causative of the high incomes Quite a straw man you built there! I hold no such opinion. > Reasonable, empathetic people are capable of thinking that "gender-affirming care" is an ideologically-driven phenomenon No reasonable, empathetic people that are in any genuine contact with trans kids are likely to feel this way, considering suicide rates and mental health outcomes of gender-affirming healthcare. >Do you feel the same way about Virginia (second highest per capita federal balance of payments), New Mexico (4th), or Maine (9th)? Are people from those states voicing the opinion that their states are well-function oases relative to the "train-wreck" that is California? I haven't heard much of it. Yet it's pretty common for red-state folks to rag on California as if their welfare governments aren't benefiting from our homofemitrans tax dollars. >in aggregate lol, this is a profoundly unserious point
all2 4y ago
> just don't be anything but white or straight Is it so wrong for people to want to be left alone? We're talking a minority (which was the majority not too long ago) wanting to be left to their social and religious moors. The whole political mess in the US is driven by a clash of ideologies. > don't be a trans kid since the state government just barely averted banning appropriate healthcare for teenagers Case in point: many people in the United States disagree with surgically altering minors' genitalia, for whatever reason. And they'd prefer such policies to not be implemented where they live. This is part of the "please, just leave me alone" attitude. More relevant to this topic (crime in SF): many people in the United States would prefer for crime to actually be punished, with punishments that are actually effective. Making it legal to loot up to 1000 USD in merch isn't going to deter crime, it does the opposite. Because the law is cancerous at this point, honest business ventures are closing up shop. People in other states see the cancer and (rightly, I think) say they don't want any part of it.
- carapace 4y ago
  > The whole political mess in the US is driven by a clash of ideologies. Not really. When you actually analyze the situation what you have is a bunch of folks who would like to just live their lives (you know, people who are gay, or non-white, or female.) But there are some people who are upset by this, and want to stop it, who treat it like some battle for the soul of the Nation. They go out of their way to persecute and abuse other people for no reason other than they don't like them. Mostly they are members of various weird quasi-Christian religions. So it's not really a "clash of ideologies" so much as it is attacks by radical religious people on anybody and everybody that won't toe their religeous/ideological belief systems.
- robertoandred 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - all2 4y ago
    Top hit on ye olde googelle [0] from a very respected children's hospital: === What services does the Surgical Gender Affirmation Program offer? The Surgical Gender Affirmation Program for teens and young adults provides: An opportunity to talk with our care coordinator before your first appointment. They will answer questions, help you prepare for an appointment and connect you with our schedulers. One or more consultations with surgeons and a gender surgery nurse to talk about your goals and surgery options and to plan the surgery. We will offer to connect you with Seattle Children’s Fertility Preservation Program before surgery if you are interested. Help after preoperative consultations to get ready for surgery, including working with your insurance company to have surgery approved. Complex procedures, including face and neck surgery, top surgery (breast/chest), bottom surgery (genitals) and body contouring. Follow-up care after surgery to check and support healing and to smoothly transition back to your usual gender care team. Support from a social worker to help arrange transportation and places to stay when you come to Seattle Children’s for care. === Seems like minor's genitalia is getting altered. [0] https://www.seattlechildrens.org/clinics/plastic-surgery/surgical-gender-affirmation-program/ https://www.seattlechildrens.org/clinics/plastic-surgery/sur...
Eisenstein 4y ago
Also don't be a woman, because there are barely any OB/GYNs there anymore since they can be prosecuted for a felony for practicing standard medical care -- and are responsible for proving that they weren't violating the law as opposed to the state having to prove that they were. They are also open to civil suits from any member of the family of a woman who loses a pregnancy under the care of a non-emergency physician. Many hospitals don't even do births anymore and will just ship you somewhere else.
mrangle 4y ago
They bareley averted banning antidepressants and antipsychotics?

prottog 4y ago

> appropriate healthcare for teenagers You're begging the question. Reasonable, empathetic people are capable of thinking that "gender-affirming care" is an ideologically-driven phenomenon that does more harm than good. > Plus they have a sweet setup since they're the 18th-most dependent state on Federal aid Do you feel the same way about Virginia (second highest per capita federal balance of payments), New Mexico (4th), or Maine (9th)? They're all blue states that receive a lot more from the federal government than they pay in. Do you also feel the same way about high income earners paying more than they get back? Because effectively that's what you're describing. California has a lot of high incomes and because the federal government does a lot of redistributing via taxation, the state as a whole pays more than it gets back. Though if you look at the per capita data[0], it works out to a few hundred bucks a year. It's also worth mentioning that since Covid, every single state has received more than it paid, and in aggregate California the most by far (which makes sense, since it's the most populous state). So California too has a sweet setup. Implicit behind your sentiment is the idea that the "train-wreck" policies in California is causative of the high incomes that has it pay more than it gets back from the federal government. That is, your argument paraphrased is that conservative Idahoans can't criticize progressive Californians since California with its progressive policies has high incomes that pay for some of Idaho's bills via redistributed federal taxation. I find that assumption unpersuasive. [0]: https://rockinst.org/issue-areas/fiscal-analysis/balance-of-payments-portal/ https://rockinst.org/issue-areas/fiscal-analysis/balance-of-...

Eisenstein 4y ago
> Reasonable, empathetic people are capable of thinking that "gender-affirming care" is an ideologically-driven phenomenon that does more harm than good. Reasonable, empathetic people who have no experience with an issue personally should mind their own damn business regarding other people's medical decisions, especially when they themselves are actually, demonstrably (not suspectedly) ideologically motivated.
- mrangle 4y ago
  >Reasonable, empathetic people who have no experience with an issue personally should mind their own damn business regarding other people's medical decisions, especially when they themselves are actually, demonstrably (not suspectedly) ideologically motivated. Sorry, kids don't get to make medical decisions and adults don't get to make harmful decisions for them. Your rant is borderline suited to an adult, and no one else. Last, imagine couching anti-child castration and mutilation as "ideological". Competent adults label this position to as sanity.
  - Eisenstein 4y ago
    They aren't your kids and you have no say in how they are treated medically so it is still none of your business. No one is castrating children. These are medically accepted practices and you are not a practicing physician and making that comparison is unhinged. Also, plenty of babies are sexually altered when their sex is undeterminable would you advocate not doing that? Leave medicine to physicians and their patients and stop putting your ideology and religion and gender anxiety on kids that aren't yours.
  - ofcourseyoudo 4y ago
    >adults don't get to make harmful decisions for them Actually, adults that are the parents of children get to make all sorts of decisions for children, harmful and not harmful. It's literally none of your business.
  - howinteresting 4y ago
    > adults don't get to make harmful decisions for them I believe exposing children to organized religion is inherently harmful because it inhibits the development of a scientific, evidence-based temperament that I think is an important part of good moral character. Yet billions of people drag their children to churches, mosques and temples every day.
howinteresting 4y ago
> Reasonable, empathetic people are capable of thinking that "gender-affirming care" is an ideologically-driven phenomenon that does more harm than good. The only way it is possible for a reasonable, empathetic person to believe that the state government banning GAC is good, is if they're stupid. Which is ok to some degree, many people are stupid.
- all2 4y ago
  If the point of gender affirming care (GAC) is to improve the mental health outcomes of the one being cared for, then it is a colossal waste of time. Mental health outcomes do not demonstrably improve after a person is placed on HRT and had their genitalia suitably modified. In fact, their long term health outcomes decline significantly later in life [0]. The suicide rate of transgender individuals is about 40%. This does not take into account whether they received GAC or not [1]. Per [0], even GAC does not improve late life all cause morbidity. I oppose gender affirming care on the grounds that it does not effectively improve a person's life (which we can see over a 30 year period in [0]) and that it often requires damaging the delicate balance of the biological machine that is the human body. If that makes me "stupid", so be it. [0] https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885 https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal... [1] https://www.thetrevorproject.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/The-Trevor-Project-National-Survey-Results-2020.pdf https://www.thetrevorproject.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/... << Warning, PDF.
  - howinteresting 4y ago
    Correct, that makes you stupid. Your premise is wrong (the correct endpoint is satisfaction and regret rates, since there are many confounding factors with something like mental health), your data doesn't show why you think it shows (the Sweden study was done in a time when the Swedish government mandated sterilization for trans people), and GAC changes the balance of the body much less than, say, lithium. Next question?
    - all2 4y ago
      GAC, by definition, sterilizes the person. Both on the hormonal front and, if they have bottom surgery, physically as well. HRT vs lithium? Dunno, I'm not a doctor. I do know that exogenous hormones can cause a body to stop producing the hormone, even at sub-clinical levels. I also know that GAC surgeries cannot be undone. But you can stop taking lithium. And all of this in the face of 40+% suicide rate that isn't affected by GAC in the slightest. Who is the ideological one here?
ofcourseyoudo 4y ago
>Implicit behind your sentiment is the idea that the "train-wreck" policies in California is causative of the high incomes Quite a straw man you built there! I hold no such opinion. > Reasonable, empathetic people are capable of thinking that "gender-affirming care" is an ideologically-driven phenomenon No reasonable, empathetic people that are in any genuine contact with trans kids are likely to feel this way, considering suicide rates and mental health outcomes of gender-affirming healthcare. >Do you feel the same way about Virginia (second highest per capita federal balance of payments), New Mexico (4th), or Maine (9th)? Are people from those states voicing the opinion that their states are well-function oases relative to the "train-wreck" that is California? I haven't heard much of it. Yet it's pretty common for red-state folks to rag on California as if their welfare governments aren't benefiting from our homofemitrans tax dollars. >in aggregate lol, this is a profoundly unserious point

all2 4y ago

> just don't be anything but white or straight Is it so wrong for people to want to be left alone? We're talking a minority (which was the majority not too long ago) wanting to be left to their social and religious moors. The whole political mess in the US is driven by a clash of ideologies. > don't be a trans kid since the state government just barely averted banning appropriate healthcare for teenagers Case in point: many people in the United States disagree with surgically altering minors' genitalia, for whatever reason. And they'd prefer such policies to not be implemented where they live. This is part of the "please, just leave me alone" attitude. More relevant to this topic (crime in SF): many people in the United States would prefer for crime to actually be punished, with punishments that are actually effective. Making it legal to loot up to 1000 USD in merch isn't going to deter crime, it does the opposite. Because the law is cancerous at this point, honest business ventures are closing up shop. People in other states see the cancer and (rightly, I think) say they don't want any part of it.

carapace 4y ago
> The whole political mess in the US is driven by a clash of ideologies. Not really. When you actually analyze the situation what you have is a bunch of folks who would like to just live their lives (you know, people who are gay, or non-white, or female.) But there are some people who are upset by this, and want to stop it, who treat it like some battle for the soul of the Nation. They go out of their way to persecute and abuse other people for no reason other than they don't like them. Mostly they are members of various weird quasi-Christian religions. So it's not really a "clash of ideologies" so much as it is attacks by radical religious people on anybody and everybody that won't toe their religeous/ideological belief systems.
robertoandred 4y ago
[flagged]
- all2 4y ago
  Top hit on ye olde googelle [0] from a very respected children's hospital: === What services does the Surgical Gender Affirmation Program offer? The Surgical Gender Affirmation Program for teens and young adults provides: An opportunity to talk with our care coordinator before your first appointment. They will answer questions, help you prepare for an appointment and connect you with our schedulers. One or more consultations with surgeons and a gender surgery nurse to talk about your goals and surgery options and to plan the surgery. We will offer to connect you with Seattle Children’s Fertility Preservation Program before surgery if you are interested. Help after preoperative consultations to get ready for surgery, including working with your insurance company to have surgery approved. Complex procedures, including face and neck surgery, top surgery (breast/chest), bottom surgery (genitals) and body contouring. Follow-up care after surgery to check and support healing and to smoothly transition back to your usual gender care team. Support from a social worker to help arrange transportation and places to stay when you come to Seattle Children’s for care. === Seems like minor's genitalia is getting altered. [0] https://www.seattlechildrens.org/clinics/plastic-surgery/surgical-gender-affirmation-program/ https://www.seattlechildrens.org/clinics/plastic-surgery/sur...

Eisenstein 4y ago

Also don't be a woman, because there are barely any OB/GYNs there anymore since they can be prosecuted for a felony for practicing standard medical care -- and are responsible for proving that they weren't violating the law as opposed to the state having to prove that they were. They are also open to civil suits from any member of the family of a woman who loses a pregnancy under the care of a non-emergency physician. Many hospitals don't even do births anymore and will just ship you somewhere else.

mrangle 4y ago

They bareley averted banning antidepressants and antipsychotics?