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I think the negativity is well deserved because if it doesn't need device integration it doesn't need to be an app. The device integration criterion includes a

by mrtksn 4y ago

I think the negativity is well deserved because if it doesn't need device integration it doesn't need to be an app. The device integration criterion includes achieving a full performance(be it for the UI immersiveness or processing speed). PWA don't tick any of these, they are just an output of the dream to have universal codebase. This is a dream I share but it doesn't need to be an app in the App Store. The only reason people make apps that don't need to be apps is to get another marketing channel through App Store distribution and another user reach channel through notifications.

factormeta 4y ago
and App Store distribution comes with quite bit money. Regular user seems to more comfortable to just download from app store type of places.
ryanbrunner 4y ago
Notifications alone are a legitimate use case that isn't always spammy growth hacking BS. It would be great if the notification story was better with PWA, but it just isn't on Apple and even on Android the well has been poisoned enough that no one is turning on browser notifications even if they legitimately want to be updated. We're considering building an app pretty much solely due to notifications, because our only option currently is e-mail and deliverability while good can never be perfect.
- mrtksn 4y ago
  AFAIK the web push notifications are already implemented with iOS 16.4 They just have to convince the user to add their PWA to the phone home screen. I guess the issue is that users hate being instructed to "install" "apps" which don't need installation to function.
lkschubert8 4y ago
But a lot of customers of your "thing" want to be able to download it from the app store.
kevincox 4y ago
This is the best part of PWA. Each user can do what they want. You just want to use it on the web? Just so that. You get the full experience because there is no resource split between the web site and native apps. You want to find the app in your favourite app store? It's there. Just install it. You like the web version but want to add a shortcut to your app list? You can do that and there is enough metadata available to provide nice icons and titles.
- slimsag 4y ago
  But owners of these properties do not want users to have that choice, they want users in a mobile app where they can collect more telemetry and spam notifications to get engagement. There’s a reason Reddit aggressively pushes you away from their mobile site.
  - kevincox 4y ago
    That doesn't seem like a reason to be negative about PWAs. Unless you are an owner worried about PWAs being normalized so that your tracker infested app stands out.
    - Spivak 4y ago
      Or a user who has already gone through the era of "enable notifications" spam and is excited for the "install our site" era.
  - thomaslord 4y ago
    With Reddit specifically, I think they at least have one legitimate reason in addition to the normal nefarious ones. Their new web interface is incredibly slow, especially as you continue browsing over time. On phones, that's likely to cause more serious performance issues than it does on desktop devices.
    - mhoad 4y ago
      You can thank the mess of the React eco system for that. There is a new-new one in the works which doesn’t suffer from the same problems.
giancarlostoro 4y ago
The benefit of a PWA is you can list a website without an app in the App store and get more hits that you might of never seen.
- JohnFen 4y ago
  There's no question that these are beneficial to devs, but as a dev, I object to the notion that benfiting devs at the expense of users is a goof thing.
  - giancarlostoro 4y ago
    Expense of users? How so? If a PWA is not a fair transparent experience, then I would definitely opt for a more native app, but otherwise I don't think they'll care so long as your website is usable on mobile.
Turing_Machine 4y ago
> I think the negativity is well deserved because if it doesn't need device integration it doesn't need to be an app. It does if you enjoy eating and paying rent, and don't like the only real alternative (i.e., cramming it full of advertising).
noodle 4y ago
> The only reason people make apps that don't need to be apps is to get another marketing channel through App Store distribution and another user reach channel through notifications. I wrote a longer response but decided to scrap it. The behaviors and expectations are different than you might expect from a pure engineering POV. Its not just sales and marketing. For better or worse, people want to interact with companies' apps on their phone via installing something "trusted" through their appropriate app store. Not responsive mobile web, not even PWAs (which are difficult for people who are not tech savvy). At my most recent exited startup, we had a web app which was mobile responsive. People asked for a mobile app. We gave them a mobile app that was simply a webview that loaded the web app. Customers loved it. We got almost no inbound from it at all for various reasons, but existing user satisfaction, engagement, etc went through the roof. They could finally "use our app on mobile" even though they always could, and we consistently pointed them to the mobile web experience to do so. This is a market full of people who are average to below average levels of tech savviness.
- mrtksn 4y ago
  Right, maybe I'm bit too cynical and there are actually valid use cases. Thanks for expanding on it.

by mrtksn 4y ago

factormeta 4y ago

and App Store distribution comes with quite bit money. Regular user seems to more comfortable to just download from app store type of places.

ryanbrunner 4y ago

Notifications alone are a legitimate use case that isn't always spammy growth hacking BS. It would be great if the notification story was better with PWA, but it just isn't on Apple and even on Android the well has been poisoned enough that no one is turning on browser notifications even if they legitimately want to be updated. We're considering building an app pretty much solely due to notifications, because our only option currently is e-mail and deliverability while good can never be perfect.

mrtksn 4y ago
AFAIK the web push notifications are already implemented with iOS 16.4 They just have to convince the user to add their PWA to the phone home screen. I guess the issue is that users hate being instructed to "install" "apps" which don't need installation to function.

lkschubert8 4y ago

But a lot of customers of your "thing" want to be able to download it from the app store.

kevincox 4y ago

This is the best part of PWA. Each user can do what they want. You just want to use it on the web? Just so that. You get the full experience because there is no resource split between the web site and native apps. You want to find the app in your favourite app store? It's there. Just install it. You like the web version but want to add a shortcut to your app list? You can do that and there is enough metadata available to provide nice icons and titles.

slimsag 4y ago
But owners of these properties do not want users to have that choice, they want users in a mobile app where they can collect more telemetry and spam notifications to get engagement. There’s a reason Reddit aggressively pushes you away from their mobile site.
- kevincox 4y ago
  That doesn't seem like a reason to be negative about PWAs. Unless you are an owner worried about PWAs being normalized so that your tracker infested app stands out.
  - Spivak 4y ago
    Or a user who has already gone through the era of "enable notifications" spam and is excited for the "install our site" era.
- thomaslord 4y ago
  With Reddit specifically, I think they at least have one legitimate reason in addition to the normal nefarious ones. Their new web interface is incredibly slow, especially as you continue browsing over time. On phones, that's likely to cause more serious performance issues than it does on desktop devices.
  - mhoad 4y ago
    You can thank the mess of the React eco system for that. There is a new-new one in the works which doesn’t suffer from the same problems.

giancarlostoro 4y ago

The benefit of a PWA is you can list a website without an app in the App store and get more hits that you might of never seen.

JohnFen 4y ago
There's no question that these are beneficial to devs, but as a dev, I object to the notion that benfiting devs at the expense of users is a goof thing.
- giancarlostoro 4y ago
  Expense of users? How so? If a PWA is not a fair transparent experience, then I would definitely opt for a more native app, but otherwise I don't think they'll care so long as your website is usable on mobile.

Turing_Machine 4y ago

> I think the negativity is well deserved because if it doesn't need device integration it doesn't need to be an app. It does if you enjoy eating and paying rent, and don't like the only real alternative (i.e., cramming it full of advertising).

noodle 4y ago

> The only reason people make apps that don't need to be apps is to get another marketing channel through App Store distribution and another user reach channel through notifications. I wrote a longer response but decided to scrap it. The behaviors and expectations are different than you might expect from a pure engineering POV. Its not just sales and marketing. For better or worse, people want to interact with companies' apps on their phone via installing something "trusted" through their appropriate app store. Not responsive mobile web, not even PWAs (which are difficult for people who are not tech savvy). At my most recent exited startup, we had a web app which was mobile responsive. People asked for a mobile app. We gave them a mobile app that was simply a webview that loaded the web app. Customers loved it. We got almost no inbound from it at all for various reasons, but existing user satisfaction, engagement, etc went through the roof. They could finally "use our app on mobile" even though they always could, and we consistently pointed them to the mobile web experience to do so. This is a market full of people who are average to below average levels of tech savviness.

mrtksn 4y ago
Right, maybe I'm bit too cynical and there are actually valid use cases. Thanks for expanding on it.