6 ms·

The SFPD just refuse to do work because they know refusal will cause people to blame it on "overtly liberal policy" and give them even more funding to do no wor

The SFPD just refuse to do work because they know refusal will cause people to blame it on "overtly liberal policy" and give them even more funding to do no work. (In the 70s they also once bombed the mayor's house when they didn't like him.)

censor_me 4y ago
[flagged]
- lern_too_spel 4y ago
  The police aren't defunded in San Francisco. They have consistently gotten budget increases. It's just that instead of hiring more, they spend it on overtime pay (1.5X normal rate) for people driving around and doing nothing. https://sfstandard.com/criminal-justice/sfpd-pay-millions-more-for-officers-to-work-fewer-hours-why/ https://sfstandard.com/criminal-justice/sfpd-pay-millions-mo...
  - alach11 4y ago
    It's crazy how effective the narrative is that the police were "defunded" when you're in here dropping facts showing the opposite.
    - dpkirchner 4y ago
      Yup. It's crucial to flag the bad-faith rabble-rousers to ensure HN doesn't become as bad as, say, reddit.
      - censor_me 4y ago
        [dead]
    - zdragnar 4y ago
      The article doesn't really support the post, though: " SF’s police department has 335 fewer full-duty police officers than it did in 2017, with a total of 1,537 officers as of January, according to Supervisor Matt Dorsey, a former police communications staffer. A police staffing analysis indicated that the department needs upward of 2,100 sworn officers to satisfy city demands. As fewer officers are available to patrol streets or respond to incidents, the department says it has been forced to ask staff to work longer hours or pick up extra shifts. " When the force is at 75% capacity, officers are overworked and deprioritizing non-emergency responses. It's a recipe for more George Floyds, not less.
      - graywh 4y ago
        a lot of police departments are running these kinds of manpower deficits due to lack of applicants
    - keneda7 4y ago
      It is crazy to me how many people just straight up lie on here. The article the poster linked to does not show the overall department budget, rather that was spent on employees' wages. I don't see you or the other poster mentioning this at all though. Here is an article you can see the overall budget of numerous police departments including SF https://abc7news.com/sfpd-budget-defund-the-police-department-funding/12321818/ https://abc7news.com/sfpd-budget-defund-the-police-departmen... 18-19: 629.8M 19-20: 692.3M 20-21: 667.9M 21-22: 657.4M I believe I see one increase and two decreases. Between 18-19 to 19-20 the departments funding increased. While the department had funding decreased from 19-20 to 20-21 and again from 20-21 to 21-22. Now whether or not this defunding (funding decrease) was due to "defund the police" or some other factor I cannot say. However I can say for a fact that the narrative police were NOT defunded is wrong. I have provided 2 overall budgets that show they were defunded for two separate time periods. Its also worth noting we are not adjusting for inflation or cost of living increases.
      - lern_too_spel 4y ago
        Your numbers don't include supplemental $27.5 million to fund police overtime in 21-22 or the increase to $761.9 million in 22-23. By my count, that's 3 increases and one decrease. https://missionlocal.org/2023/03/sf-mayor-27m-police-overtime-proposal/ https://missionlocal.org/2023/03/sf-mayor-27m-police-overtim... https://sfbos.org/sites/default/files/BLA.SF_Police_Dept._Budget_032023.pdf https://sfbos.org/sites/default/files/BLA.SF_Police_Dept._Bu...
        keneda7 4y ago
        So just be clear you are claiming there is 0 defunding but then admit by your count there is one decrease which is also known as defunding? Also based on the timeline for 21-22 they defunded, then recognized the need more money because you know they defunded from the previous year so then allocated more funding. The article I linked didn't have 22-23.
        lern_too_spel 4y ago
        And just to be clear, you're agreeing with somebody who claimed that SFPD is defunded and is only acting differently because they are currently defunded. You're also saying that 3 out of 4 isn't consistent. Fine. Does that make me a liar, or are you picking nits? > The article I linked didn't have 22-23. That's what I said.
  - carlivar 4y ago
    What about prosecution? I agree the police aren't defunded, but aren't prosecutors and judges becoming more lenient? This has to be demoralizing for police. Combined with housing costs and you have a vicious cycle of a recruitment issue. I would expect overtime pay to be up if hiring is difficult.
    - lern_too_spel 4y ago
      Why should it be demoralizing? After they make the arrest and submit the case report, their job is done. If the DA decides to prosecute and the defendant requests a jury trial, they have to go to court and submit testimony. Whether the DA decides to divert a drug offender to rehab or tries to put them in prison is not SFPD's problem. Whichever one results in higher recidivism will make their job of finding a new person to arrest easier. The problem is they're not making arrests, even when the evidence is handed to them on a silver platter, and they haven't been making arrests for decades.
      - carlivar 4y ago
        Well I guess it doesn't matter if code ships either. Work hard coding it, and if it gets thrown out and never used despite your hard work, that's the way it goes. As for not making arrests, isn't that self reinforcing? Of course police will slow down arrests if the other end is not completing the process. I find your view of this unusual and puzzling.
        lern_too_spel 4y ago
        They get paid to do a job. I find your view that it's reasonable for them not to do a job because they would do somebody else's job differently utterly incomprehensible.
        carlivar 4y ago
        Well it's nice to know that organizations such as the Trump Presidential Campaign and Exxon-Mobil will never have any difficulty recruiting any task-bots, I mean, employees.
  - bnralt 4y ago
    Eh. A lot of people are ignoring that most cities did move in the defund police direction in 2020 and 2021, and then tried to reverse course and pretend it didn’t happen. For instance, this is from 2021[1]: “San Francisco Mayor London Breed announces cuts to police in new city budget”. The problem is you can’t suddenly reverse course, and cuts can have an impact for years to come, especially with the long lead time for things like recruitment and training. [1] https://abc7news.com/san-francisco-budget-announcement-defund-sfpd-the-police-london-breed-press-conference/6345069/ https://abc7news.com/san-francisco-budget-announcement-defun...
    - lern_too_spel 4y ago
      And you're ignoring that this proposed budget cut never happened. The Dream Keeper Initiative was paid for from the general fund instead of from SFPD budget. https://www.sfweekly.com/archives/is-san-francisco-re-funding-the-police/article_f7f50019-0eaf-51b0-bc84-585a8889e77a.html https://www.sfweekly.com/archives/is-san-francisco-re-fundin...
      - bnralt 4y ago
        According to your article, the police department budget for 2019-20 was $692, and the proposal for 2021-22 was $661. Which would definitely be less. But even worse when you adjust for inflation - the 2019-20 budget would be $733 million in 2021 dollars, compared to the $661 for the 2021-22 budget. Also worth quoting this section of the article you linked to: > That means over the two year budget period, the city reduced law enforcement spending to the tune of $110 million. As the budget process continues, supervisors will have the opportunity to propose further cuts that could get closer to $120 million, like they did last year.
- AlexandrB 4y ago
  The number of police departments that actually got defunded after "defund the police" can probably be counted on 0 hands. SF certainly did no such thing[1]. [1] https://abc7news.com/sfpd-budget-defund-the-police-department-funding/12321818/ https://abc7news.com/sfpd-budget-defund-the-police-departmen...
  - bnralt 4y ago
    According to the article, that's a 4.4% increase during a 3 year period with 14.5% cumulative inflation. Which would be a large cut in real dollar terms, no?
  - SaintGhurka 4y ago
    San Francisco Budget has been cut 2 years in a row. $692.3 million in 2019-2020 $667.9 million in 2020-2021 $657.4 million in 2021-2022 Source: your link. The article's headline says it's up 4.4% but that's compared to 2019.
- ameister14 4y ago
  San Francisco police officers start at over $100,000 per year.
  - rejectfinite 4y ago
    That's not what the phrase means from my understanding. It refers to the whole department/police institution itself, not what individual officers make.
- dghlsakjg 4y ago
  Has the SFPD been defunded? It looks like their budget is higher now than at any point in their history…
  - dyno12345 4y ago
    Not accounting for inflation
Workaccount2 4y ago
What do the police have to do with the fact that prosecutors and DAs aren't filing charges and judges aren't handing out meaningful punishments? "Oh look, Ricky is stealing again, should we bother arresting his aggressive angry ass again for the 7th time this year? Nah."
- astrange 4y ago
  They should do their job they're paid for. Do you get to just not do your job when you don't feel like it?
mint2 4y ago
Here another fun example of the sf police refusing to work — only this one has a happy ending - they actually face consequences. An la times article said: “ San Francisco police officers Kevin Lyons and Kevin Sien have been temporarily suspended after they were arrested last year in connection with the destruction of evidence. They’re accused of destroying credit cards, identification records and suspected methamphetamine discovered in the luggage of a person staying in a hotel. Lyons and Sien allegedly told staff that cataloging the evidence would take too long and instead disposed of the credit cards and IDs in a shred bin and flushed the drugs down a hotel toilet, according to state court criminal complaints.” It’s a story mentioned here https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-04-03/twenty-police-officers-in-california-face-possible-decertification-a-move-that-would-stop-them-being-cops https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-04-03/twenty-p...
CTmystery 4y ago
Is this actually true? I remember seeing SFPD post stuff on twitter like, "13th time this perp has been brought in, still no charges". They were getting the same guy over and over. It could have been a one-off, but I suppose they were using their platform to show that they _were_ working, and it was a policy of no teeth that let the perpetrators get off easy. Edit: found the tweet: https://twitter.com/SFPDTenderloin/status/1337280516609884161 https://twitter.com/SFPDTenderloin/status/133728051660988416... Do you have evidence for the claim that cops in SF stopped working because they didn't like the DA?
- HDThoreaun 4y ago
  No one is being honest in this debate. I would not take either sides word. I don't live in SF, but a similar city and the police use the same rhetoric while they refuse to do anything except sit in their car all day. No one trusts the police to accomplish anything here because they've been silent striking since covid began and I would not be surprised if the same was happening in SF. The DA is also a shit show though, it's not like you can point to any one person or action and in good faith say "here's the problem"
wing-_-nuts 4y ago
I don't own a gun, but honestly, if I lived in a place like this, I would try to get a concealed carry license, and frankly if that didn't work I'd probably carry anyway. In civilized society, you make a pact with the state. They have a 'monopoly on violence' and in exchange, you and your property are protected. That pact seems to be broken in SF, and to a lesser extent in CA at large. People should do what they need to in order to keep themselves safe. If that means a gun? So be it.
- bitxbitxbitcoin 4y ago
  The county is notorious for not giving out concealed carry licenses. Only a local business owner who has been robbed multiple times before would qualify essentially.
  - Asparagirl 4y ago
    Not anymore! California became a CCW “shall issue” state (instead of “may issue”) last June, under NYSRPA v Bruen. There’s a backlog of people applying, but it’s finally possible. https://calmatters.org/guns/2023/03/california-concealed-carry-permits/ https://calmatters.org/guns/2023/03/california-concealed-car...
    - bitxbitxbitcoin 4y ago
      TIL. Thank you for sharing this with me.
- gmassman 4y ago
  While I agree with your sentiment, the problem with gun ownership in a place like SF is the risk of manslaughter charges. Shooting someone committing a property crime may be seen as justifiable from the eyes of the property owner, but not in the eyes of the law. Unfortunately you’re best off just letting yourself get robbed, or moving away if you don’t want to accept the risks of living with an ineffectual local government.
  - 4y ago
baremetal 4y ago
I'm sure the defund the police rhetoric helped.
yadaeno 4y ago
This is not true from my experience. I’ve been the victim of a crime in SF and while they are severely understaffed they were very cooperative and willing to help.

censor_me 4y ago

[flagged]

lern_too_spel 4y ago
The police aren't defunded in San Francisco. They have consistently gotten budget increases. It's just that instead of hiring more, they spend it on overtime pay (1.5X normal rate) for people driving around and doing nothing. https://sfstandard.com/criminal-justice/sfpd-pay-millions-more-for-officers-to-work-fewer-hours-why/ https://sfstandard.com/criminal-justice/sfpd-pay-millions-mo...
- alach11 4y ago
  It's crazy how effective the narrative is that the police were "defunded" when you're in here dropping facts showing the opposite.
  - dpkirchner 4y ago
    Yup. It's crucial to flag the bad-faith rabble-rousers to ensure HN doesn't become as bad as, say, reddit.
    - censor_me 4y ago
      [dead]
  - zdragnar 4y ago
    The article doesn't really support the post, though: " SF’s police department has 335 fewer full-duty police officers than it did in 2017, with a total of 1,537 officers as of January, according to Supervisor Matt Dorsey, a former police communications staffer. A police staffing analysis indicated that the department needs upward of 2,100 sworn officers to satisfy city demands. As fewer officers are available to patrol streets or respond to incidents, the department says it has been forced to ask staff to work longer hours or pick up extra shifts. " When the force is at 75% capacity, officers are overworked and deprioritizing non-emergency responses. It's a recipe for more George Floyds, not less.
    - graywh 4y ago
      a lot of police departments are running these kinds of manpower deficits due to lack of applicants
  - keneda7 4y ago
    It is crazy to me how many people just straight up lie on here. The article the poster linked to does not show the overall department budget, rather that was spent on employees' wages. I don't see you or the other poster mentioning this at all though. Here is an article you can see the overall budget of numerous police departments including SF https://abc7news.com/sfpd-budget-defund-the-police-department-funding/12321818/ https://abc7news.com/sfpd-budget-defund-the-police-departmen... 18-19: 629.8M 19-20: 692.3M 20-21: 667.9M 21-22: 657.4M I believe I see one increase and two decreases. Between 18-19 to 19-20 the departments funding increased. While the department had funding decreased from 19-20 to 20-21 and again from 20-21 to 21-22. Now whether or not this defunding (funding decrease) was due to "defund the police" or some other factor I cannot say. However I can say for a fact that the narrative police were NOT defunded is wrong. I have provided 2 overall budgets that show they were defunded for two separate time periods. Its also worth noting we are not adjusting for inflation or cost of living increases.
    - lern_too_spel 4y ago
      Your numbers don't include supplemental $27.5 million to fund police overtime in 21-22 or the increase to $761.9 million in 22-23. By my count, that's 3 increases and one decrease. https://missionlocal.org/2023/03/sf-mayor-27m-police-overtime-proposal/ https://missionlocal.org/2023/03/sf-mayor-27m-police-overtim... https://sfbos.org/sites/default/files/BLA.SF_Police_Dept._Budget_032023.pdf https://sfbos.org/sites/default/files/BLA.SF_Police_Dept._Bu...
      - keneda7 4y ago
        So just be clear you are claiming there is 0 defunding but then admit by your count there is one decrease which is also known as defunding? Also based on the timeline for 21-22 they defunded, then recognized the need more money because you know they defunded from the previous year so then allocated more funding. The article I linked didn't have 22-23.
        lern_too_spel 4y ago
        And just to be clear, you're agreeing with somebody who claimed that SFPD is defunded and is only acting differently because they are currently defunded. You're also saying that 3 out of 4 isn't consistent. Fine. Does that make me a liar, or are you picking nits? > The article I linked didn't have 22-23. That's what I said.
- carlivar 4y ago
  What about prosecution? I agree the police aren't defunded, but aren't prosecutors and judges becoming more lenient? This has to be demoralizing for police. Combined with housing costs and you have a vicious cycle of a recruitment issue. I would expect overtime pay to be up if hiring is difficult.
  - lern_too_spel 4y ago
    Why should it be demoralizing? After they make the arrest and submit the case report, their job is done. If the DA decides to prosecute and the defendant requests a jury trial, they have to go to court and submit testimony. Whether the DA decides to divert a drug offender to rehab or tries to put them in prison is not SFPD's problem. Whichever one results in higher recidivism will make their job of finding a new person to arrest easier. The problem is they're not making arrests, even when the evidence is handed to them on a silver platter, and they haven't been making arrests for decades.
    - carlivar 4y ago
      Well I guess it doesn't matter if code ships either. Work hard coding it, and if it gets thrown out and never used despite your hard work, that's the way it goes. As for not making arrests, isn't that self reinforcing? Of course police will slow down arrests if the other end is not completing the process. I find your view of this unusual and puzzling.
      - lern_too_spel 4y ago
        They get paid to do a job. I find your view that it's reasonable for them not to do a job because they would do somebody else's job differently utterly incomprehensible.
        carlivar 4y ago
        Well it's nice to know that organizations such as the Trump Presidential Campaign and Exxon-Mobil will never have any difficulty recruiting any task-bots, I mean, employees.
- bnralt 4y ago
  Eh. A lot of people are ignoring that most cities did move in the defund police direction in 2020 and 2021, and then tried to reverse course and pretend it didn’t happen. For instance, this is from 2021[1]: “San Francisco Mayor London Breed announces cuts to police in new city budget”. The problem is you can’t suddenly reverse course, and cuts can have an impact for years to come, especially with the long lead time for things like recruitment and training. [1] https://abc7news.com/san-francisco-budget-announcement-defund-sfpd-the-police-london-breed-press-conference/6345069/ https://abc7news.com/san-francisco-budget-announcement-defun...
  - lern_too_spel 4y ago
    And you're ignoring that this proposed budget cut never happened. The Dream Keeper Initiative was paid for from the general fund instead of from SFPD budget. https://www.sfweekly.com/archives/is-san-francisco-re-funding-the-police/article_f7f50019-0eaf-51b0-bc84-585a8889e77a.html https://www.sfweekly.com/archives/is-san-francisco-re-fundin...
    - bnralt 4y ago
      According to your article, the police department budget for 2019-20 was $692, and the proposal for 2021-22 was $661. Which would definitely be less. But even worse when you adjust for inflation - the 2019-20 budget would be $733 million in 2021 dollars, compared to the $661 for the 2021-22 budget. Also worth quoting this section of the article you linked to: > That means over the two year budget period, the city reduced law enforcement spending to the tune of $110 million. As the budget process continues, supervisors will have the opportunity to propose further cuts that could get closer to $120 million, like they did last year.
AlexandrB 4y ago
The number of police departments that actually got defunded after "defund the police" can probably be counted on 0 hands. SF certainly did no such thing[1]. [1] https://abc7news.com/sfpd-budget-defund-the-police-department-funding/12321818/ https://abc7news.com/sfpd-budget-defund-the-police-departmen...
- bnralt 4y ago
  According to the article, that's a 4.4% increase during a 3 year period with 14.5% cumulative inflation. Which would be a large cut in real dollar terms, no?
- SaintGhurka 4y ago
  San Francisco Budget has been cut 2 years in a row. $692.3 million in 2019-2020 $667.9 million in 2020-2021 $657.4 million in 2021-2022 Source: your link. The article's headline says it's up 4.4% but that's compared to 2019.
ameister14 4y ago
San Francisco police officers start at over $100,000 per year.
- rejectfinite 4y ago
  That's not what the phrase means from my understanding. It refers to the whole department/police institution itself, not what individual officers make.
dghlsakjg 4y ago
Has the SFPD been defunded? It looks like their budget is higher now than at any point in their history…
- dyno12345 4y ago
  Not accounting for inflation

Workaccount2 4y ago

What do the police have to do with the fact that prosecutors and DAs aren't filing charges and judges aren't handing out meaningful punishments? "Oh look, Ricky is stealing again, should we bother arresting his aggressive angry ass again for the 7th time this year? Nah."

astrange 4y ago
They should do their job they're paid for. Do you get to just not do your job when you don't feel like it?

mint2 4y ago

Here another fun example of the sf police refusing to work — only this one has a happy ending - they actually face consequences. An la times article said: “ San Francisco police officers Kevin Lyons and Kevin Sien have been temporarily suspended after they were arrested last year in connection with the destruction of evidence. They’re accused of destroying credit cards, identification records and suspected methamphetamine discovered in the luggage of a person staying in a hotel. Lyons and Sien allegedly told staff that cataloging the evidence would take too long and instead disposed of the credit cards and IDs in a shred bin and flushed the drugs down a hotel toilet, according to state court criminal complaints.” It’s a story mentioned here https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-04-03/twenty-police-officers-in-california-face-possible-decertification-a-move-that-would-stop-them-being-cops https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-04-03/twenty-p...

CTmystery 4y ago

Is this actually true? I remember seeing SFPD post stuff on twitter like, "13th time this perp has been brought in, still no charges". They were getting the same guy over and over. It could have been a one-off, but I suppose they were using their platform to show that they _were_ working, and it was a policy of no teeth that let the perpetrators get off easy. Edit: found the tweet: https://twitter.com/SFPDTenderloin/status/1337280516609884161 https://twitter.com/SFPDTenderloin/status/133728051660988416... Do you have evidence for the claim that cops in SF stopped working because they didn't like the DA?

HDThoreaun 4y ago
No one is being honest in this debate. I would not take either sides word. I don't live in SF, but a similar city and the police use the same rhetoric while they refuse to do anything except sit in their car all day. No one trusts the police to accomplish anything here because they've been silent striking since covid began and I would not be surprised if the same was happening in SF. The DA is also a shit show though, it's not like you can point to any one person or action and in good faith say "here's the problem"

wing-_-nuts 4y ago

I don't own a gun, but honestly, if I lived in a place like this, I would try to get a concealed carry license, and frankly if that didn't work I'd probably carry anyway. In civilized society, you make a pact with the state. They have a 'monopoly on violence' and in exchange, you and your property are protected. That pact seems to be broken in SF, and to a lesser extent in CA at large. People should do what they need to in order to keep themselves safe. If that means a gun? So be it.

bitxbitxbitcoin 4y ago
The county is notorious for not giving out concealed carry licenses. Only a local business owner who has been robbed multiple times before would qualify essentially.
- Asparagirl 4y ago
  Not anymore! California became a CCW “shall issue” state (instead of “may issue”) last June, under NYSRPA v Bruen. There’s a backlog of people applying, but it’s finally possible. https://calmatters.org/guns/2023/03/california-concealed-carry-permits/ https://calmatters.org/guns/2023/03/california-concealed-car...
  - bitxbitxbitcoin 4y ago
    TIL. Thank you for sharing this with me.
gmassman 4y ago
While I agree with your sentiment, the problem with gun ownership in a place like SF is the risk of manslaughter charges. Shooting someone committing a property crime may be seen as justifiable from the eyes of the property owner, but not in the eyes of the law. Unfortunately you’re best off just letting yourself get robbed, or moving away if you don’t want to accept the risks of living with an ineffectual local government.
- 4y ago

baremetal 4y ago

I'm sure the defund the police rhetoric helped.

yadaeno 4y ago

This is not true from my experience. I’ve been the victim of a crime in SF and while they are severely understaffed they were very cooperative and willing to help.