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> we seriously do need to discuss the capabilities of the average user and how allowing PWAs to bypass the app store review process is likely to be harmful to t

> we seriously do need to discuss the capabilities of the average user and how allowing PWAs to bypass the app store review process is likely to be harmful to them We have at least two kinds of users. One is the non-technical user you are talking about. The other is a braver, more independent, and maybe even technically literate user who at least reads the prompts before granting requested permissions. One group of users wants the comfort of knowing that a big tech company is keeping them safe by keeping a close eye on the place where they get their apps from. The other group of users wants to enjoy the new project Fugu apis available on Chromium-based browsers. Why is the first group of users attended to, and the second one ignored? Why not allow two app stores — one, installed by default and guarded and taxed by Apple, and the other for the projects that want to take a different route — and let the user choose?

Nursie 4y ago
> The other group of users wants to enjoy the new project Fugu apis available on Chromium-based browsers. But it's not users, it's developers. Specifically below we have people saying that as a developer they don't want to have to jump through hoops, nor pay the tax. And as a developer I can empathise. But as a tech savvy user I don't actually have anything that makes me desire PWAs. There's no driver there for me, I don't care about the new project fugu apis available on Chromium-based browsers, I can probably get a native app that does the thing I want, it's developers that care about that stuff. Stuff they could already do if they weren't trying to bypass the app store infrastructure. So even among tech savvy users, the number of users who care about installing from outside of the app store ecosystem is not 100%. > Why is the first group of users attended to, and the second one ignored? Group 1 is a lot larger, they are the mainstream audience and the tech-savvy-but-doesn't-care-specifically-for-PWAs audience. Not only are they the people that the device vendors want to target, they are the people that the nefarious would-be PWA writers want to target too. > and let the user choose? "Press this button, this button and this button to get the free shiny! Don't worry about those silly warnings, they just don't want you having any fun!" "Hi, is this Apple? My phone is an unusable pile of shite and somehow all my money is gone"
- azangru 4y ago
  > But as a tech savvy user I don't actually have anything that makes me desire PWAs. Storage space? The knowledge that the app you installed runs inside a browser sandbox, with certain safety guarantees (I've never quite learnt what they are; but apparently they exist). Personally, I would be much happier installing PWAs than native apps. I know PWAs are effectively just websites. I know what to expect from websites. I know I can remove them cleanly if I want to. I have no idea what to expect from native apps. > "Press this button, this button and this button to get the free shiny! Don't worry about those silly warnings, they just don't want you having any fun!" – "Hi, is this Apple? My phone is an unusable pile of shite and somehow all my money is gone" Is this a problem on Android or on Windows? Do people besiege Google (or Samsung, or Microsoft) complaining that their devices have become unusable and that their money has evaporated because they have installed something on their device? Is this, ultimately, Apple's problem (you can still install things on a Mac bypassing the app store)?
  - tcfhgj 4y ago
    > Storage space? The knowledge that the app you installed runs inside a browser sandbox, with certain safety guarantees (I've never quite learnt what they are; but apparently they exist). > Personally, I would be much happier installing PWAs than native apps. I know PWAs are effectively just websites. I know what to expect from websites. I know I can remove them cleanly if I want to. I have no idea what to expect from native apps. You have the same with UWP apps
  - illiarian 4y ago
    > I know what to expect from websites. Do you? For example, Chrome allows MIDI Device enumeration without permission, and it's used in fingerprinting. The number of APIs available to web sites (especially in Chrome) will soon rival the number of APIs available to native apps.
  - Nursie 4y ago
    I mean… yes? It is an issue on windows, though it’s not necessarily MS they phone when someone’s got them to install something evil on there. And yes, it’s an issue on PCs that people end up overloaded with alerts and crap. People do indeed buy tablets because they’re easier and safer, particularly for older, less savvy relatives or kids. Undermining that is likely to hurt the market. As for the other - I know what to expect from a native app, mobile platforms particularly have similar guarantees and expectations, and I know someone else has had eyes on it. Those guarantees you’re talking about aren’t necessarily very meaningful in the face of social engineering - a PWA may not be able to take over your device but they could still be great avenues for phishing attacks etc.

Nursie 4y ago

> The other group of users wants to enjoy the new project Fugu apis available on Chromium-based browsers. But it's not users, it's developers. Specifically below we have people saying that as a developer they don't want to have to jump through hoops, nor pay the tax. And as a developer I can empathise. But as a tech savvy user I don't actually have anything that makes me desire PWAs. There's no driver there for me, I don't care about the new project fugu apis available on Chromium-based browsers, I can probably get a native app that does the thing I want, it's developers that care about that stuff. Stuff they could already do if they weren't trying to bypass the app store infrastructure. So even among tech savvy users, the number of users who care about installing from outside of the app store ecosystem is not 100%. > Why is the first group of users attended to, and the second one ignored? Group 1 is a lot larger, they are the mainstream audience and the tech-savvy-but-doesn't-care-specifically-for-PWAs audience. Not only are they the people that the device vendors want to target, they are the people that the nefarious would-be PWA writers want to target too. > and let the user choose? "Press this button, this button and this button to get the free shiny! Don't worry about those silly warnings, they just don't want you having any fun!" "Hi, is this Apple? My phone is an unusable pile of shite and somehow all my money is gone"

azangru 4y ago
> But as a tech savvy user I don't actually have anything that makes me desire PWAs. Storage space? The knowledge that the app you installed runs inside a browser sandbox, with certain safety guarantees (I've never quite learnt what they are; but apparently they exist). Personally, I would be much happier installing PWAs than native apps. I know PWAs are effectively just websites. I know what to expect from websites. I know I can remove them cleanly if I want to. I have no idea what to expect from native apps. > "Press this button, this button and this button to get the free shiny! Don't worry about those silly warnings, they just don't want you having any fun!" – "Hi, is this Apple? My phone is an unusable pile of shite and somehow all my money is gone" Is this a problem on Android or on Windows? Do people besiege Google (or Samsung, or Microsoft) complaining that their devices have become unusable and that their money has evaporated because they have installed something on their device? Is this, ultimately, Apple's problem (you can still install things on a Mac bypassing the app store)?
- tcfhgj 4y ago
  > Storage space? The knowledge that the app you installed runs inside a browser sandbox, with certain safety guarantees (I've never quite learnt what they are; but apparently they exist). > Personally, I would be much happier installing PWAs than native apps. I know PWAs are effectively just websites. I know what to expect from websites. I know I can remove them cleanly if I want to. I have no idea what to expect from native apps. You have the same with UWP apps
- illiarian 4y ago
  > I know what to expect from websites. Do you? For example, Chrome allows MIDI Device enumeration without permission, and it's used in fingerprinting. The number of APIs available to web sites (especially in Chrome) will soon rival the number of APIs available to native apps.
- Nursie 4y ago
  I mean… yes? It is an issue on windows, though it’s not necessarily MS they phone when someone’s got them to install something evil on there. And yes, it’s an issue on PCs that people end up overloaded with alerts and crap. People do indeed buy tablets because they’re easier and safer, particularly for older, less savvy relatives or kids. Undermining that is likely to hurt the market. As for the other - I know what to expect from a native app, mobile platforms particularly have similar guarantees and expectations, and I know someone else has had eyes on it. Those guarantees you’re talking about aren’t necessarily very meaningful in the face of social engineering - a PWA may not be able to take over your device but they could still be great avenues for phishing attacks etc.