3 ms·

Regular reminder that "web apps" are just apps written for the very opinionated and limited stack. In this stack instead of proper UI framework developers left

by divan 4y ago

Regular reminder that "web apps" are just apps written for the very opinionated and limited stack. In this stack instead of proper UI framework developers left with typesetting engine (HTML), weird set of global styling variables (CSS) and half-baked scripting language with no philosophy (JS). All this lavishly peppered with tons of layers of abstractions and hacks on top to make it more or less usable for modern UIs. Complexity of these layers is borderline insane, and more and more hacks are being added every year. On top of this, as a result of wild nature of non-existent distribution process on web, the app runs in a limited sandbox. That's also a reason why not just usability, but security and performance of web apps are so much worse than native apps. Downvoting starts in 3..2..1..

holoduke 4y ago
We are in the process of converting our native apps (+10m daily users) to javascript apps. We did some extensive testing last year and our conclusion is that the current hardware (also 3 year old devices) are powerful enough to run these apps. User experience is identical in the way we build them. Full client side rendering it means. We find the eco system of mainly Android extremely bloated and complex. Developing in one code base with just minor platform specific differences is so much better. Things like styling the UI: Css is just king compared to both Android and iOS native solutions. Of course certain things remain native. Push notifications, auth logins, ads and some other minor things. I cant wait to see our apps filly webbased.
- divan 4y ago
  > are powerful enough to run these apps. Right. We're carrying stupidly powerful supercomputers in our pockets just to be able to run simple apps written in this stack. > Developing in one code base with just minor platform specific differences is so much better. Try Flutter.
  - pritambaral 4y ago
    I did. It wasn't anywhere as good as the web platform.
    - Alifatisk 4y ago
      Out of curiosity, in which way didn't Flutter fulfill your need? I've been doing Flutter dev since a couple of months back and it's been a sweet ride so far. There is of course some hiccups but with no major obstacle.
      - pritambaral 4y ago
        - Rendering to web is (for all practical purposes) entirely broken. - DNS is broken (because Google wants to have its own version of the internet). - TLS is broken (for the same reason as above). - Layout is limited (far too much, in comparison to web). - Keyboard interaction is (practically) barebones. - State management is (practically) one-style only. TBH, that last point applies to nearly all of Flutter. You get a strong feeling that the only way to do anything is the Google-blessed method and nothing else. If you need anything done differently, just don't.
        divan 4y ago
        > Rendering to web is (for all practical purposes) entirely broken. Can you expand on how exactly it "entirely broken"? I use it two years in production apps, and it's been amazing. The look and feel is pixel-to-pixel perfect to the native apps and slightly different from the "native browser", but it doesn't matter to users. > DNS is broken, TLS is broken ))) right. IP is broken too ) > Layout is limited (far too much, in comparison to web). Flutter not just designed to give you full control over layouts and its constraints in an efficient way (so widgets don't get rerendered or sizes don't get recalculated redundantly), it has custom painters and shaders and let you create completely custom layouts, including high-fps games. How is this more limited then DOM and "<a href target="_blank">" legacy? > Keyboard interaction is (practically) barebones. What's missing? > State management is (practically) one-style only. At this point I have a strong suspicion that you're trolling. State management in Flutter is a notoriously overpopulated field, with a whole zoo of officially endorsed approaches (for different cases and/or app sizes). Actually, if you would mention this as a main argument (no one-style state management) – I would agree with your point.
  - holoduke 4y ago
    I doubt there is much difference between javs dalvik runtime on Android and a browser javascript runtime. For some tasks the browser runtime is maybe even more optimized.
danjac 4y ago
Protip: if you complain about being downvoted, you are guaranteed to get downvoted.
- divan 4y ago
  It wasn't a complain (: Three generations of developers have never experienced anything beyond web stack, so challenging the premise that typesetting engine from 80s isn't even a right foundation for UI app development is a sure way to get negative reactions at scale.

by divan 4y ago

holoduke 4y ago

We are in the process of converting our native apps (+10m daily users) to javascript apps. We did some extensive testing last year and our conclusion is that the current hardware (also 3 year old devices) are powerful enough to run these apps. User experience is identical in the way we build them. Full client side rendering it means. We find the eco system of mainly Android extremely bloated and complex. Developing in one code base with just minor platform specific differences is so much better. Things like styling the UI: Css is just king compared to both Android and iOS native solutions. Of course certain things remain native. Push notifications, auth logins, ads and some other minor things. I cant wait to see our apps filly webbased.

divan 4y ago
> are powerful enough to run these apps. Right. We're carrying stupidly powerful supercomputers in our pockets just to be able to run simple apps written in this stack. > Developing in one code base with just minor platform specific differences is so much better. Try Flutter.
- pritambaral 4y ago
  I did. It wasn't anywhere as good as the web platform.
  - Alifatisk 4y ago
    Out of curiosity, in which way didn't Flutter fulfill your need? I've been doing Flutter dev since a couple of months back and it's been a sweet ride so far. There is of course some hiccups but with no major obstacle.
    - pritambaral 4y ago
      - Rendering to web is (for all practical purposes) entirely broken. - DNS is broken (because Google wants to have its own version of the internet). - TLS is broken (for the same reason as above). - Layout is limited (far too much, in comparison to web). - Keyboard interaction is (practically) barebones. - State management is (practically) one-style only. TBH, that last point applies to nearly all of Flutter. You get a strong feeling that the only way to do anything is the Google-blessed method and nothing else. If you need anything done differently, just don't.
      - divan 4y ago
        > Rendering to web is (for all practical purposes) entirely broken. Can you expand on how exactly it "entirely broken"? I use it two years in production apps, and it's been amazing. The look and feel is pixel-to-pixel perfect to the native apps and slightly different from the "native browser", but it doesn't matter to users. > DNS is broken, TLS is broken ))) right. IP is broken too ) > Layout is limited (far too much, in comparison to web). Flutter not just designed to give you full control over layouts and its constraints in an efficient way (so widgets don't get rerendered or sizes don't get recalculated redundantly), it has custom painters and shaders and let you create completely custom layouts, including high-fps games. How is this more limited then DOM and "<a href target="_blank">" legacy? > Keyboard interaction is (practically) barebones. What's missing? > State management is (practically) one-style only. At this point I have a strong suspicion that you're trolling. State management in Flutter is a notoriously overpopulated field, with a whole zoo of officially endorsed approaches (for different cases and/or app sizes). Actually, if you would mention this as a main argument (no one-style state management) – I would agree with your point.
- holoduke 4y ago
  I doubt there is much difference between javs dalvik runtime on Android and a browser javascript runtime. For some tasks the browser runtime is maybe even more optimized.

danjac 4y ago

Protip: if you complain about being downvoted, you are guaranteed to get downvoted.

divan 4y ago
It wasn't a complain (: Three generations of developers have never experienced anything beyond web stack, so challenging the premise that typesetting engine from 80s isn't even a right foundation for UI app development is a sure way to get negative reactions at scale.