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San Francisco has the notion that drugged up people out of their mind have the ability and the right to live in a civilized society.. Rule by common sense, not
by fosk 4y ago
San Francisco has the notion that drugged up people out of their mind have the ability and the right to live in a civilized society..
Rule by common sense, not ideology.
- happytoexplain 4y agoBoth sides of the SF topic are absolutely poisoned by ideology. It's a borderline un-discussable topic on the internet at this point, even on HN.
- the_third_wave 4y ago[flagged]
- hindsightbias 4y ago[flagged]
- lmaoge 4y agobruh that is not the other side, the other side is not giving drug addicts, resources to do more drugs
- junofan 4y agoThe other side is not wanting to clean human shit from the steps to my door every week. Hardly an ideology.
- happytoexplain 4y agoJust the normal bullshit you get with any political argument (cherry-picking, dishonesty, etc), but particularly exaggerated. The subset of people I'm referring to are not interested in fixing the problem - only in using it as evidence of how justified their hatred for their political enemies is. This is obvious - I'm not referring to something subtle or defending the SF government.
- the_third_wave 4y agoThat's nothing more than hiding your head in the sand though, isn't it? When the wry fruits of those policies are so clear to see it is no more than logical that opponents of those policies - who have been clamouring about just those things for years - point out what happened yet another time. This is not cherry-picking at all as there are no cherries to be picked in this garden, only rotten fruits. There is no exaggeration either since there is no need for such - and isn't it a sad thing all in itself? As to "fixing the problem" I'd say that when your house is on fire you first take to the firehose before you chastise your children for playing with matches.
- threatofrain 4y agoI'd also ask what is the other side of this. What are the largest conservative cities in the US around 800k scale? It seems like the largest cities in big conservative states, such as TX (Houston, San Antonio, Dallas) or FL (Jacksonville, Miami), are at most as conservative as "purple" or liberal leaning. SF is also quite close to the national homicide average while being denser than most cities.
- boc 4y agoLargest is probably Oklahoma City. They average around 70 murders annually for a population of just under 700K, or around 35th in the nation for major cities. It has twice the rate of murder as SF according to that Wiki list posted above.
- refurb 4y agoOnly vaguely related to your comment, but comparing cities can give unreliable data. City boundaries within a metropolitan area are often quite arbitrary. A murder can happen on one block and be in the city and two blocks over and outside the city. A good example is Detroit. Greater metro Detroit has 4.3M people, but the city of Detroit has 632,000. And the city of Detroit is where most of the poverty is and most murders happen, within the larger metro area, so you end up with super high murder rates for Detroit and super low murder rates for the surrounding area. But in the grand scheme of things it’s just one big metro area.
- gfdsgfsdgfs 4y agoSF is far richer than the median city. This is a bad comparison. SF should be compared against NYC, San Jose and Singapore not St Louis and Baltimore.
- AmericanChopper 4y agoI really like Singapore, but it’s almost a single party police state. It’s somewhat unique in a couple of respects. Mostly that it does actually provide the safety and stability that you are theoretically promised as a trade of for the compromised civil liberties, and that the government is kinda, mostly benevolent… But I don’t think it’s directly comparable to a country that embraces civil liberties. It’s probably pretty safe to walk around Pyongyang too. Economically speaking they also embrace a basically libertarian style of free market capitalism (in respect to everything except land use), which is another reason they’re not a great comparison.
- lyu07282 4y agoneither "side" wants to address anything even remotely close to the root causes of it, so the options are very limited. The right, at least, favours a solution that is congruent to its reactionary values, in a way it is a more internally consistent ideology than social progressive liberalism. The latter has to content with the unavoidable internal inconsistencies it creates. In other words, liberals have the uncomfortable task of ruling the richest cities with the largest wealth and income inequality, in such a way that is both progressive and economically liberal. So you end up not regulating the real-estate industry or providing livable wages, but you are also not bulldozing the tent cities or investing in larger prisons to more effectively mass-incarcerate poor people crimes.
- neilparikh 4y ago> not regulating the real-estate industry Are we talking about the same city? SF real estate is super regulated, it’s my go to example of real estate regulations taken to an insane level. This is the city where any citizen can appeal any project for just a few hundred dollars, and basically every medium-large project is a negotiation with the SF board of supervisors (and often random non profits too, just look at what happened to 469 Stevenson St).
- lyu07282 4y agoI was more so referring to public housing projects, rent control, banning institutional investment firms and more. I'm sure they have much regulation in place, doesn't mean it meaningfully addresses the housing cost crisis in any capacity.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- faeriechangling 4y agoWhat's the other side, but portrayed as a straw-man? Chasing the poor out of the city by sending armed thugs after them, redistributing wealth from poor to rich by ratcheting up rents, keeping rich to poor wealth redistribution to a minimum, and importing more yuppies until gentrification is completed. At some point the poor will be displaced thus reducing wealth inequality in the city thus reducing crime.
- subsistence234 4y agoIn well-run cities, that stay on top of public safety and hygiene, extreme measures never become necessary.
- amrocha 4y agoIn well run cities and countries this doesn't happen in the first place. Stop criminalizing poverty and try actually solving the problem.
- subsistence234 4y ago[flagged]
- amrocha 4y agoThey're not doing that. No city is doing that. Your way of thinking leads to punishing people for being poor.
- subsistence234 4y agoI understand that social climbing requires participation in this lying game. Maybe your HN account is tied to your irl identity, so I understand if you can't speak honestly here.
- flippinburgers 4y agoRational individuals apparently.
- hnav 4y agoSF in a lot of ways is a microcosm of the US and the broader world which is currently suffering what can only be described as emergent behavior in social networking. Like unintended gradient descent to get everybody maximally polarized by learning what most upsets them and feeding them more of that.
- lmaoge 4y ago[flagged]
- grumple 4y agoIf you don't like addressing the reality the above poster stated, then sure.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- thomasahle 4y agoSan Francisco is still only number 66 in murders/population of US cities: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_crime_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_b... Though Oakland is number 23. Or 18 on this list: https://worldpopulationreview.com/us-city-rankings/cities-with-most-murders https://worldpopulationreview.com/us-city-rankings/cities-wi...
- gfdsgfsdgfs 4y agoSan Francisco has more than twice the murder rate of San Jose.
- FreakLegion 4y agoNot even 66th of all US cities, only of the hundred biggest by population. Of all US cities last year it was no worse than 120th per capita and 140th by total[1]. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_by_homicide_rate#Other_statistics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_by_homicide_rat...
- gfdsgfsdgfs 4y agoWhy are you comparing San Francisco against cities with completely different demographics? If you compare SF against similar cities, it is far more dangerous. It has almost twice the murder rate of NYC for example.
- midoridensha 4y agoIt looks pretty dangerous and violent to me. Just having your city (or even your country) on the list in your link is bad. Here's another link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intention... The US, as a whole, ranks #60, at 6.5 intentional homicides per 100k. This is just under Russia, Nicaragua, Haiti, Yemen, Afghanistan, Paraguay, and Tanzania, and only slightly better than Argentina, Sudan, Tunisia, etc. By contrast, countries like Germany, Ireland, Norway, Italy, Hungary, etc. rank in the 150-160 range with 0.5 to 0.8 per 100k. Here in Japan, we're #181 with only 0.3/100k. From my perspective, SF's murder rate is huge, and the entire US is a violent, "developing" nation. (I put "developing" in quotes because it seems like it's actually going backwards, unlike most developing nations, and the use of "3rd world" here doesn't make logical sense according to its original definition.)
- louwrentius 4y agoEveryone has the right to live in a civilized society. That’s the definition also of a civilized society, how you deal with homelessness and drug addicts. SF is clearly not a civilized place at all, or frankly the USA for that matter.