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As someone who reluctantly moved to iOS from Android and reluctantly stays on iOS there really is no other option for "normal" ("regular"?) users who don't want

As someone who reluctantly moved to iOS from Android and reluctantly stays on iOS there really is no other option for "normal" ("regular"?) users who don't want the Google crap all over their existence. Graphene, Lineage etc are all excellent solutions for people who want to (or "can") get their hands dirty and can live without normal functions of "commercial" apps, for everyone else as of today there is just two option - Apple's iOS or Google blessed Android. I am not even talking about warranty and bricking woes. This is a duopoly as clear as day. We can keep telling ourselves that we have options, we don't. It's settled, at least that is how it is right now (again, maybe except for "tinkerers" which I guess even I was until around a decade ago).

neilv 4y ago
This doesn't address all your concerns, but for people who want to keep the commercial apps, GrapheneOS now supports that to some degree: https://grapheneos.org/features#sandboxed-google-play https://grapheneos.org/features#sandboxed-google-play
KingMachiavelli 4y ago
I will say GrapheneOS is much more usable than normal custom Android ROMs. Maybe this has changed but IME even Lineage based ROMs, official or otherisez don't have automatic updates the same way stock does. But GrapheneOS and a few similar projects actual have fully automatic updates, for every Android security update and major versions. Once installed which is very easy as long as your are starting fresh, GrapheneOS requires no effort to maintain. F-droid or even the Google Play Store works just fine once configured. The only apps that don't work are major banking apps and snapchat so not a big deal. If you have family/friends that use smartphones but don't really use "Apps" then GrapheneOS is perfectly fine.
- an_aparallel 4y ago
  I am not 1% as technical as the regular HN contingiency - and i can only say - flashing a pixel 6 pro with graphene was smooth as silk. Just requires some good reading and instruction following skills. Amazing OS...works fast, UI doesnt change whenever it feels like...absolutely the best tech related thing i've done this year. I would have been on it sooner if i wasnt so annoyed about needing to own a Google phone to use it :P
- aembleton 4y ago
  > The only apps that don't work are major banking apps and snapchat so not a big deal. Its a big deal for me if my banking app doeosn't work.
- crossroadsguy 4y ago
  My banking and finance apps are the mandatory apps that I keep on my phone :( These are the kinds of caveats I tried to point to in my comment. That it’s not an option even though it feels like that.
madmads 4y ago
I use GrapheneOS on a Pixel 7 Pro daily and I can use banking, transport, and government apps just fine. There's only been one time I had to look up how to get an app working and that was trivial. I get notifications and can use the Google services I choose with permissions I pick. I can even use all the hardware features such as Google's AI image editing and camera features. Even installing GrapheneOS is done through a browser and takes just a few steps. If you are just slightly technically inclined I see no reason you can't use GrapheneOS, I haven't personally had to compromise in any way while I have gained complete control of my device. Even if using GrapheneOS came with downsides, the amount of power you gain over your device would have been worth it. If you have a Pixel device you owe it to yourself to spend a few minutes finding out if you want to try GrapheneOS.
judge2020 4y ago
It's a duopoly. But what is the solution? Requiring developers develop for GrapheneOS? Or forbidding Apple from making iOS/iPhone secure enough to be used by at-risk individuals being targeted by nation state actors with n > $1M in resources to use on attacking someone (by forcing them to allow third-party app stores/downloading apps from websites/etc)?
- Zuiii 4y ago
  Break them up! The potential for manufacturers to abuse their customers when they control the full stack. Belllabs both Google and Apple. Hardware and software should developed by separate entities anyway. If it works for normal computers, it can work for small normal computers too.
  - nopenotthat 4y ago
    [dead]
- AnthonyMouse 4y ago
  > Or forbidding Apple from making iOS/iPhone secure enough to be used by at-risk individuals being targeted by nation state actors with n > $1M in resources to use on attacking someone (by forcing them to allow third-party app stores/downloading apps from websites/etc)? This has always been a pretext. They could sell phones that allow you to do any of those things by default and allow the user to set an option that locks the device to only Apple's store until the device is factory wiped. That would not be any less secure for people who choose that option, but would give people the choice without tying that choice to the entire platform. > It's a duopoly. But what is the solution? That depends on who you are. If you're a government, antitrust. If you're anyone technical, buy a device that isn't always the easiest to use and then use your talents to make it better for everyone. If you're in a managerial role at any kind of large enterprise, smart companies have purchasing requirements that penalize certain vendor behavior, by prohibiting purchases from them entirely or requiring them to come in some significant percentage lower than any competing bid. Make sure vendor-locked products get penalized by your company. Let the vendors know this is why they're not being chosen. (The reverse version of this also works: Have corporate charge individual departments a large premium for purchases of disfavored products. Then they have to decide how much they really need it and alternatives get attractive.) If you're a regular person, don't buy anything that requires you to install an app on your phone. Use your bank's website and if you can't then get a different bank. Don't do business with companies that remove your choice of platforms, even if you still don't currently have one, so that someday you might.
flexagoon 4y ago
Here's the thing: Lineage is for people who "can live without normal functions of commercial apps". Graphene is not. Because all "normal functions" work on Graphene. It's also super easy to install - you literally just need to press a few buttons in a web browser. (Lineage is also not an excellent solution because it has severe security flaws and questionable privacy benefits)
iopq 4y ago
About a billion people in China can manage without a single Google program on their phone

neilv 4y ago

This doesn't address all your concerns, but for people who want to keep the commercial apps, GrapheneOS now supports that to some degree: https://grapheneos.org/features#sandboxed-google-play https://grapheneos.org/features#sandboxed-google-play

KingMachiavelli 4y ago

I will say GrapheneOS is much more usable than normal custom Android ROMs. Maybe this has changed but IME even Lineage based ROMs, official or otherisez don't have automatic updates the same way stock does. But GrapheneOS and a few similar projects actual have fully automatic updates, for every Android security update and major versions. Once installed which is very easy as long as your are starting fresh, GrapheneOS requires no effort to maintain. F-droid or even the Google Play Store works just fine once configured. The only apps that don't work are major banking apps and snapchat so not a big deal. If you have family/friends that use smartphones but don't really use "Apps" then GrapheneOS is perfectly fine.

an_aparallel 4y ago
I am not 1% as technical as the regular HN contingiency - and i can only say - flashing a pixel 6 pro with graphene was smooth as silk. Just requires some good reading and instruction following skills. Amazing OS...works fast, UI doesnt change whenever it feels like...absolutely the best tech related thing i've done this year. I would have been on it sooner if i wasnt so annoyed about needing to own a Google phone to use it :P
aembleton 4y ago
> The only apps that don't work are major banking apps and snapchat so not a big deal. Its a big deal for me if my banking app doeosn't work.
crossroadsguy 4y ago
My banking and finance apps are the mandatory apps that I keep on my phone :( These are the kinds of caveats I tried to point to in my comment. That it’s not an option even though it feels like that.

madmads 4y ago

I use GrapheneOS on a Pixel 7 Pro daily and I can use banking, transport, and government apps just fine. There's only been one time I had to look up how to get an app working and that was trivial. I get notifications and can use the Google services I choose with permissions I pick. I can even use all the hardware features such as Google's AI image editing and camera features. Even installing GrapheneOS is done through a browser and takes just a few steps. If you are just slightly technically inclined I see no reason you can't use GrapheneOS, I haven't personally had to compromise in any way while I have gained complete control of my device. Even if using GrapheneOS came with downsides, the amount of power you gain over your device would have been worth it. If you have a Pixel device you owe it to yourself to spend a few minutes finding out if you want to try GrapheneOS.

judge2020 4y ago

It's a duopoly. But what is the solution? Requiring developers develop for GrapheneOS? Or forbidding Apple from making iOS/iPhone secure enough to be used by at-risk individuals being targeted by nation state actors with n > $1M in resources to use on attacking someone (by forcing them to allow third-party app stores/downloading apps from websites/etc)?

Zuiii 4y ago
Break them up! The potential for manufacturers to abuse their customers when they control the full stack. Belllabs both Google and Apple. Hardware and software should developed by separate entities anyway. If it works for normal computers, it can work for small normal computers too.
- nopenotthat 4y ago
  [dead]
AnthonyMouse 4y ago
> Or forbidding Apple from making iOS/iPhone secure enough to be used by at-risk individuals being targeted by nation state actors with n > $1M in resources to use on attacking someone (by forcing them to allow third-party app stores/downloading apps from websites/etc)? This has always been a pretext. They could sell phones that allow you to do any of those things by default and allow the user to set an option that locks the device to only Apple's store until the device is factory wiped. That would not be any less secure for people who choose that option, but would give people the choice without tying that choice to the entire platform. > It's a duopoly. But what is the solution? That depends on who you are. If you're a government, antitrust. If you're anyone technical, buy a device that isn't always the easiest to use and then use your talents to make it better for everyone. If you're in a managerial role at any kind of large enterprise, smart companies have purchasing requirements that penalize certain vendor behavior, by prohibiting purchases from them entirely or requiring them to come in some significant percentage lower than any competing bid. Make sure vendor-locked products get penalized by your company. Let the vendors know this is why they're not being chosen. (The reverse version of this also works: Have corporate charge individual departments a large premium for purchases of disfavored products. Then they have to decide how much they really need it and alternatives get attractive.) If you're a regular person, don't buy anything that requires you to install an app on your phone. Use your bank's website and if you can't then get a different bank. Don't do business with companies that remove your choice of platforms, even if you still don't currently have one, so that someday you might.

flexagoon 4y ago

Here's the thing: Lineage is for people who "can live without normal functions of commercial apps". Graphene is not. Because all "normal functions" work on Graphene. It's also super easy to install - you literally just need to press a few buttons in a web browser. (Lineage is also not an excellent solution because it has severe security flaws and questionable privacy benefits)

iopq 4y ago

About a billion people in China can manage without a single Google program on their phone