3 ms·

Those fabs are former cutting edge, but now fully accounting-deprecated, so they're used for MCUs. But I wonder what the steady state looks like? Nobody makes 1

Those fabs are former cutting edge, but now fully accounting-deprecated, so they're used for MCUs. But I wonder what the steady state looks like? Nobody makes 180nm equipment now. Eventually they'll run out of spare parts. What do things look like in another 30 years? MCUs made at 14nm? How big would the die be on like an ATtiny4? Bond wires crowded around 100x100 µm of populated silicon? Dicing saw kerf throwing away half the wafer?

ianburrell 4y ago
I wonder if there is a market for new fabs for old processes. Make them cheap, modular, easy to setup. Then use them for the embedded market. Maybe promise long lifetimes or multiple proceses to support legacy. Or force everyone on one process with huge supply. Basically, the screws and washers of semiconductors.
- xbmcuser 4y ago
  After the ban by USA on export of some chips to China. China seems to have invested heavily in these mature nodes in the last 2-3 years not just the bleeding edge so it would be hard for non chinese companies to compete in mature nodes in the future. China was already investing in foundries but the US recent ban seem to have pushed them to invest a lot more and accelerated their ability.
- shash 4y ago
  Enormously so. Like, you simply can't run motors directly from a 7nm chip. Not to mention, space and radiation hardening - lots of space stuff gets done at 180/130/90...
- LargoLasskhyfv 4y ago
  Vishay does that right now in Itzehoe, Germany a few dozen miles north-west of Hamburg. 300mm wafers with large structures, but for MEMS , power ,and automotive, mostly. The site already does 200mm wafers, also MEMS, power and automotive. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vishay_Intertechnology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vishay_Intertechnology https://jobs.vishay.com/go/Itzehoe/5510701 https://jobs.vishay.com/go/Itzehoe/5510701 Has been planned for a while, building started ca. 2 weeks ago.
shash 4y ago
There are other problems there like mixed signal work, higher voltages, etc. that make it hard to use the smaller nodes. Especially the FinFET ones for classic microcontroller uses. And the bond wire problem you point out is also real; these designs will then become severely limited by core size and not the size of the padring. But the advantage will be, ridiculously high yields. That’s why 28nm is such a sweet spot - you are still on bulk silicon, but the frequencies are great and the yield is massive for tiny chips.

ianburrell 4y ago

I wonder if there is a market for new fabs for old processes. Make them cheap, modular, easy to setup. Then use them for the embedded market. Maybe promise long lifetimes or multiple proceses to support legacy. Or force everyone on one process with huge supply. Basically, the screws and washers of semiconductors.

xbmcuser 4y ago
After the ban by USA on export of some chips to China. China seems to have invested heavily in these mature nodes in the last 2-3 years not just the bleeding edge so it would be hard for non chinese companies to compete in mature nodes in the future. China was already investing in foundries but the US recent ban seem to have pushed them to invest a lot more and accelerated their ability.
shash 4y ago
Enormously so. Like, you simply can't run motors directly from a 7nm chip. Not to mention, space and radiation hardening - lots of space stuff gets done at 180/130/90...
LargoLasskhyfv 4y ago
Vishay does that right now in Itzehoe, Germany a few dozen miles north-west of Hamburg. 300mm wafers with large structures, but for MEMS , power ,and automotive, mostly. The site already does 200mm wafers, also MEMS, power and automotive. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vishay_Intertechnology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vishay_Intertechnology https://jobs.vishay.com/go/Itzehoe/5510701 https://jobs.vishay.com/go/Itzehoe/5510701 Has been planned for a while, building started ca. 2 weeks ago.

shash 4y ago

There are other problems there like mixed signal work, higher voltages, etc. that make it hard to use the smaller nodes. Especially the FinFET ones for classic microcontroller uses. And the bond wire problem you point out is also real; these designs will then become severely limited by core size and not the size of the padring. But the advantage will be, ridiculously high yields. That’s why 28nm is such a sweet spot - you are still on bulk silicon, but the frequencies are great and the yield is massive for tiny chips.