11 ms·

I find Americans really don't like change. Still using a penny, still using dollar bills, not using the metric system, still using Fahrenheit.

crazygringo 4y ago
> really don't like change > Still using a penny Sorry, too easy... :)
Aloha 4y ago
Dislike of change is a worldwide constant, like gravity. Also, all measurement systems are functionally arbitrary - be it the kings foot, a rod in a library, or some mathematical constant - all are arbitrary, ours is just a little less rational and certainly less relational than others. Fahrenheit is just fine however thank you. (My ideal system would be a zero to 200 system, water would freeze at zero and boil at 200, gives you the best of both worlds, and less need for half degrees in measuring the weather - or other human centric temperatures.) The US government is an original signer of the Metric Treaty, and if you deal with the federal government you're often supplying measurements in meters and weight in kilograms. The military is metric too. Just not so much anything else. Even bolts on our cars are metric, at least mostly. Every car I've had from MY1986 on has been more metric than SAE. In fairness however, we're not the only English speaking country using miles still. For that matter, aviation (in most of the world) still uses feet too - inventors privilege I suppose. ;-) Most Americans are aware of the metric system and have a vague idea of how long a meter is for example, we also know the 0 is freezing in Celsius. I don't think the costs of changing the places we use customary units would pay for the benefits, our soda cans even are usually clearly labeled at 355ml. I agree we should get rid of the penny, and probably dollar bills, but for a bunch of historical reasons americans don't like dollar coins. (Mostly the size we picked is too close to the quarter)
- mulmen 4y ago
  Anyone involved with chemistry uses the metric system. As does anyone who plays soccer. It's everywhere. Go look at any item in your pantry, metric units will be printed on it.
  - laurencerowe 4y ago
    The metric system is great but measurements in football (aka soccer) pitches are more naturally expressed in yards than metres given its historical standardisation in Britain. I only played during PE lessons but don’t recall anyone ever referring to measurements during play. Just “the box” or the “halfway line”. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_pitch https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_pitch
  - Aloha 4y ago
    Yeah, that was largely my point, everyone who complains about america not being metric has not been to the store, I think we're around as metrified at the UK, the one difference is we still use Fahrenheit, and anything sold bulk measure is sold in pounds - packaged goods have Metric on them either because of a legal requirement, or because of bleedover from Canada and Mexico, most store scales can do KG or Pounds - but are set to Pounds.
    - mulmen 4y ago
      I'm not convinced re: cross-border sales. When Canada was on the imperial system they were on the actual Imperial system. The one the British adopted in 1826. That's post-revolution so the US was on the US customary system which evolved alongside the Metric system and for similar reasons. This means that gallons were different sizes. Today Canada sells milk in bags, I'm not sure that's even available in the US. Cars in Canada have different gauge clusters to support primary-kph. There are probably additional differences in packaging. Does Canada use the same nutrition facts label? I would believe that there's some standardization from NAFTA and similar agreements with our northern (and southern) neighbors. But I think Canada's usage of the Metric (and Imperial) systems has more to do with being part of the commonwealth and less to do with the US being nearby.
      - Aloha 4y ago
        I googled, and this was the answer, there is a separate similar requirement for metric labeling for cosmetics and the like. https://www.packaginglaw.com/ask-an-attorney/are-both-imperial-and-metric-measurements-required-packaging https://www.packaginglaw.com/ask-an-attorney/are-both-imperi... "Labels on packaged food regulated by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) must provide the statement of quantity in both metric terms (grams, kilograms, milliliters, liters) and U.S. Customary System terms (ounces, pounds, fluid ounces). For meat, poultry, and poultry products, which are regulated by the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA), the statement of quantity need only be expressed in U.S. Customary System terms. The use of metric measurement is voluntary because the Fair Packaging and Labeling Act (FPLA), which regulates labeling of consumer commodities, exempts meat and poultry products from metric statement requirements. (See 15 USC 1459(a)(1)."
- wkat4242 4y ago
  > for a bunch of historical reasons americans don't like dollar coins. (Mostly the size we picked is too close to the quarter) I'm also surprised you like the dollar bills all the same size and colour. I don't know how I'd pay in a bar while drunk lol. Though I guess like most people these days I just slap my phone on the reader.
  - Aloha 4y ago
    They are now subtlety different colors, anything 10 dollars and above has their own shade. I dont personally I think it matters very much, I actually mostly carry 2 dollar bills around, for novelty (and rememberability) factors (they make great tips). And.. basically yeah, we pay with cards now, lol
- tialaramex 4y ago
  In terms of arbitrariness, note that your "traditional" units are only actually defined in terms of the SI system ("metric" units). Metrication is expensive and although the US is rich it declines to spend the eye-watering sums it would cost to do adequate metrication separately for its own unit system, so the pound is defined as some number of kilograms, the inch is defined as some number of metres and so on. As a result to the extent all the systems are arbitrary, all the traditional units are automatically one step more arbitrary.
  - Aloha 4y ago
    The number of layers of arbitrary dont bother me very much. We've metrified our industry (gradually over 50 or so years), dealing the the government is metric, etc. I think we've adopted the metric system in the most important places - I dont think our competitiveness is harmed or helped if I have to buy meat by the KG at the grocery, or the weather forecast comes in celsius or not.
    - usrbinbash 4y ago
      Then why not just officially ditch what is, at this point, a quirky anachronism at best, and a potentially really expensive source of mistakes [1] at worst? [1]: https://www.simscale.com/blog/nasa-mars-climate-orbiter-metric/ https://www.simscale.com/blog/nasa-mars-climate-orbiter-metr...
      - Aloha 4y ago
        Largely, the because the costs to change what remains, isnt worth the savings we'd get from doing it. Moreover the people who would have to bear those costs, are often the people in business least able to do so.
        usrbinbash 4y ago
        Out of curiosity, how much would that cost? And just so it's easier to put that number into perspective, how would it compare to, say, spending more on defense than the next 10 countries on the list combined, having the most expensive Healthcare system in the world, or having trillion-dollar tax cuts? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_budget_of_the_United_States#Comparison_with_other_countries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_budget_of_the_United_... https://www.statista.com/chart/8658/health-spending-per-capita/ https://www.statista.com/chart/8658/health-spending-per-capi... https://www.forbes.com/sites/camilomaldonado/2019/10/10/trump-tax-cuts-helped-billionaires-pay-less-taxes-than-the-working-class-in-2018/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/camilomaldonado/2019/10/10/trum...
- usrbinbash 4y ago
  > Also, all measurement systems are functionally arbitrary It's not a question whether they are arbitrary, it's a question if they are technically consistent within themselves. The metric system is: Everything is orders of magnitude, powers of ten, throughout all the measurements. Consequently, everything measured by base units of distance and mass follows the same rules: A Watt is 1 Joule per second, which is 1 Newtonmeter per second, which is 1 kilogramm per meter squared per second per second per second. 1 Grey (Gy) is 1 Joule of radiation absorbed in 1 kg of mass. If I have to do a calculation, I simply put the different weights and whatever in, and everything just falls into place on its own. Additionally, measurements of distance and mass are not independent, but based on one another, also by powers of ten. 1000 cubic centimeters (a litre) of Water at maximum density is 1kg of mass. 1 Millilitre of it is 1 gram of mass. 1 m³ of it is 1 metric ton, which is 1000 kg. Not only is that consistent, it also fits into our radix 10 numerical system like a hand into a fine glove. I have yet to find any internal consistency in the various imperial systems of measurement. Everything is based on yet another arbitrary comparison with real life objects or references, and so nothing is consistent with anything else. A mile is 8 furlongs, a furlong is 10 chains, a chain is 4 rods, a rod is 5.5 yards, a yard is 3 feet, a foot is 12 inches. Land is measured in acres, which is a furlong by a chain. Measurements of mass don't follow measurements of distance. A ton is 160 stone, or 160 * 8 "hundredweights", or 160 * 8 * 14 pounds, or 160 * 8 * 14 * 16 ounces. Not only is it not dependent on the distance measurements, the conversion rates are also dissimilar.
  - saalweachter 4y ago
    > Measurements of mass don't follow measurements of distance. A ton is 160 stone, or 160 * 8 "hundredweights", or 160 * 8 * 14 pounds, or 160 * 8 * 14 * 16 ounces. Not only is it not dependent on the distance measurements, the conversion rates are also dissimilar. Woah woah woah, don't put that evil on us in the USA, that stone madness is all British. A US hundredweight is 100 lbs. The metric system didn't invent water volume and weight correspondence -- a pint's a pound the whole world round. 1 pint of water weighs one pound, and one fluid ounce of water weighs one ounce.
    - usrbinbash 4y ago
mulmen 4y ago
Americans use the metric system every day. And what's wrong with a penny? Decimal currency has to retain a fundamental unit or there are some amounts that can't be created.
- b112 4y ago
  I don't have a horse in this race, but I think what the commenter meant was, some places don't use the penny any more. In Canada, the penny is gone. It was too expensive to keep (cost of producing them is just silly, for their value of 1 cent.). So prices are just rounded when using cash: https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/programs/about-canada-revenue-agency-cra/phasing-penny.html https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/programs/about-canad... In as the penny was effectively worthless even a decade ago (when this was done), it just makes sense. I can't think of a single person, or retailer, who cared. Most approved of it. So, that's probably what someone meant by the penny comment. Whether the US should do the same? I don't know. I just know it worked out very easily, and well, in Canada.
  - mulmen 4y ago
    > cost of producing them is just silly, for their value of 1 cent. I don't understand this argument. A penny is not disposable. They last for decades, being used in thousands of transactions. It only has to generate more economic value in its life than it cost to produce. The face value is irrelevant. Dropping the penny just means you changed the resolution of your currency from 100ths to 20ths. Can I still run a credit card transaction for $1.17 in Canada? > I just know it worked out very easily, and well, in Canada. What benefits did Canada realize with this change?
    - b112 4y ago
      Read some of the info / stats here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penny_(Canadian_coin)#Abolition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penny_(Canadian_coin)#Abolitio... The real problem is that pennies are worth nothing, (1 cent has no real value for people), so people hoard them, or don't care if they are damaged/lost. Add to that, the cost of the metal is more than the face value, so illegal or not, people can buy them and profit by destroying them. Look at these stats: * A 2007 survey indicated that 37 percent of Canadians used pennies, but the government continued to produce about 816 million pennies per year, equal to 24 pennies per Canadian. * In 2011 the Royal Canadian Mint had minted 1.1 billion pennies Spending millions yearly, because people don't care, isn't sensible. And yes, electronic means to the penny, cash means rounding. Who cares? It all evens out in the end, and 2 cents is nothing, yet it saves tens of millions a year. Not to mention, counting all those pennies for no reason. You know how it worked for me? I'd get paid in cash, get a few pennies, and at end of day throw them on my dresser. Do you think I put them in my pocket, to count out next time? No. No one did. Because it isn't worth the energy or time. We'll probably phase out the nickle soon.

crazygringo 4y ago

> really don't like change > Still using a penny Sorry, too easy... :)

Aloha 4y ago

Dislike of change is a worldwide constant, like gravity. Also, all measurement systems are functionally arbitrary - be it the kings foot, a rod in a library, or some mathematical constant - all are arbitrary, ours is just a little less rational and certainly less relational than others. Fahrenheit is just fine however thank you. (My ideal system would be a zero to 200 system, water would freeze at zero and boil at 200, gives you the best of both worlds, and less need for half degrees in measuring the weather - or other human centric temperatures.) The US government is an original signer of the Metric Treaty, and if you deal with the federal government you're often supplying measurements in meters and weight in kilograms. The military is metric too. Just not so much anything else. Even bolts on our cars are metric, at least mostly. Every car I've had from MY1986 on has been more metric than SAE. In fairness however, we're not the only English speaking country using miles still. For that matter, aviation (in most of the world) still uses feet too - inventors privilege I suppose. ;-) Most Americans are aware of the metric system and have a vague idea of how long a meter is for example, we also know the 0 is freezing in Celsius. I don't think the costs of changing the places we use customary units would pay for the benefits, our soda cans even are usually clearly labeled at 355ml. I agree we should get rid of the penny, and probably dollar bills, but for a bunch of historical reasons americans don't like dollar coins. (Mostly the size we picked is too close to the quarter)

mulmen 4y ago
Anyone involved with chemistry uses the metric system. As does anyone who plays soccer. It's everywhere. Go look at any item in your pantry, metric units will be printed on it.
- laurencerowe 4y ago
  The metric system is great but measurements in football (aka soccer) pitches are more naturally expressed in yards than metres given its historical standardisation in Britain. I only played during PE lessons but don’t recall anyone ever referring to measurements during play. Just “the box” or the “halfway line”. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_pitch https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_pitch
- Aloha 4y ago
  Yeah, that was largely my point, everyone who complains about america not being metric has not been to the store, I think we're around as metrified at the UK, the one difference is we still use Fahrenheit, and anything sold bulk measure is sold in pounds - packaged goods have Metric on them either because of a legal requirement, or because of bleedover from Canada and Mexico, most store scales can do KG or Pounds - but are set to Pounds.
  - mulmen 4y ago
    I'm not convinced re: cross-border sales. When Canada was on the imperial system they were on the actual Imperial system. The one the British adopted in 1826. That's post-revolution so the US was on the US customary system which evolved alongside the Metric system and for similar reasons. This means that gallons were different sizes. Today Canada sells milk in bags, I'm not sure that's even available in the US. Cars in Canada have different gauge clusters to support primary-kph. There are probably additional differences in packaging. Does Canada use the same nutrition facts label? I would believe that there's some standardization from NAFTA and similar agreements with our northern (and southern) neighbors. But I think Canada's usage of the Metric (and Imperial) systems has more to do with being part of the commonwealth and less to do with the US being nearby.
    - Aloha 4y ago
      I googled, and this was the answer, there is a separate similar requirement for metric labeling for cosmetics and the like. https://www.packaginglaw.com/ask-an-attorney/are-both-imperial-and-metric-measurements-required-packaging https://www.packaginglaw.com/ask-an-attorney/are-both-imperi... "Labels on packaged food regulated by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) must provide the statement of quantity in both metric terms (grams, kilograms, milliliters, liters) and U.S. Customary System terms (ounces, pounds, fluid ounces). For meat, poultry, and poultry products, which are regulated by the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA), the statement of quantity need only be expressed in U.S. Customary System terms. The use of metric measurement is voluntary because the Fair Packaging and Labeling Act (FPLA), which regulates labeling of consumer commodities, exempts meat and poultry products from metric statement requirements. (See 15 USC 1459(a)(1)."
wkat4242 4y ago
> for a bunch of historical reasons americans don't like dollar coins. (Mostly the size we picked is too close to the quarter) I'm also surprised you like the dollar bills all the same size and colour. I don't know how I'd pay in a bar while drunk lol. Though I guess like most people these days I just slap my phone on the reader.
- Aloha 4y ago
  They are now subtlety different colors, anything 10 dollars and above has their own shade. I dont personally I think it matters very much, I actually mostly carry 2 dollar bills around, for novelty (and rememberability) factors (they make great tips). And.. basically yeah, we pay with cards now, lol
tialaramex 4y ago
In terms of arbitrariness, note that your "traditional" units are only actually defined in terms of the SI system ("metric" units). Metrication is expensive and although the US is rich it declines to spend the eye-watering sums it would cost to do adequate metrication separately for its own unit system, so the pound is defined as some number of kilograms, the inch is defined as some number of metres and so on. As a result to the extent all the systems are arbitrary, all the traditional units are automatically one step more arbitrary.
- Aloha 4y ago
  The number of layers of arbitrary dont bother me very much. We've metrified our industry (gradually over 50 or so years), dealing the the government is metric, etc. I think we've adopted the metric system in the most important places - I dont think our competitiveness is harmed or helped if I have to buy meat by the KG at the grocery, or the weather forecast comes in celsius or not.
  - usrbinbash 4y ago
    Then why not just officially ditch what is, at this point, a quirky anachronism at best, and a potentially really expensive source of mistakes [1] at worst? [1]: https://www.simscale.com/blog/nasa-mars-climate-orbiter-metric/ https://www.simscale.com/blog/nasa-mars-climate-orbiter-metr...
    - Aloha 4y ago
      Largely, the because the costs to change what remains, isnt worth the savings we'd get from doing it. Moreover the people who would have to bear those costs, are often the people in business least able to do so.
      - usrbinbash 4y ago
        Out of curiosity, how much would that cost? And just so it's easier to put that number into perspective, how would it compare to, say, spending more on defense than the next 10 countries on the list combined, having the most expensive Healthcare system in the world, or having trillion-dollar tax cuts? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_budget_of_the_United_States#Comparison_with_other_countries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_budget_of_the_United_... https://www.statista.com/chart/8658/health-spending-per-capita/ https://www.statista.com/chart/8658/health-spending-per-capi... https://www.forbes.com/sites/camilomaldonado/2019/10/10/trump-tax-cuts-helped-billionaires-pay-less-taxes-than-the-working-class-in-2018/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/camilomaldonado/2019/10/10/trum...
usrbinbash 4y ago
> Also, all measurement systems are functionally arbitrary It's not a question whether they are arbitrary, it's a question if they are technically consistent within themselves. The metric system is: Everything is orders of magnitude, powers of ten, throughout all the measurements. Consequently, everything measured by base units of distance and mass follows the same rules: A Watt is 1 Joule per second, which is 1 Newtonmeter per second, which is 1 kilogramm per meter squared per second per second per second. 1 Grey (Gy) is 1 Joule of radiation absorbed in 1 kg of mass. If I have to do a calculation, I simply put the different weights and whatever in, and everything just falls into place on its own. Additionally, measurements of distance and mass are not independent, but based on one another, also by powers of ten. 1000 cubic centimeters (a litre) of Water at maximum density is 1kg of mass. 1 Millilitre of it is 1 gram of mass. 1 m³ of it is 1 metric ton, which is 1000 kg. Not only is that consistent, it also fits into our radix 10 numerical system like a hand into a fine glove. I have yet to find any internal consistency in the various imperial systems of measurement. Everything is based on yet another arbitrary comparison with real life objects or references, and so nothing is consistent with anything else. A mile is 8 furlongs, a furlong is 10 chains, a chain is 4 rods, a rod is 5.5 yards, a yard is 3 feet, a foot is 12 inches. Land is measured in acres, which is a furlong by a chain. Measurements of mass don't follow measurements of distance. A ton is 160 stone, or 160 * 8 "hundredweights", or 160 * 8 * 14 pounds, or 160 * 8 * 14 * 16 ounces. Not only is it not dependent on the distance measurements, the conversion rates are also dissimilar.
- saalweachter 4y ago
  > Measurements of mass don't follow measurements of distance. A ton is 160 stone, or 160 * 8 "hundredweights", or 160 * 8 * 14 pounds, or 160 * 8 * 14 * 16 ounces. Not only is it not dependent on the distance measurements, the conversion rates are also dissimilar. Woah woah woah, don't put that evil on us in the USA, that stone madness is all British. A US hundredweight is 100 lbs. The metric system didn't invent water volume and weight correspondence -- a pint's a pound the whole world round. 1 pint of water weighs one pound, and one fluid ounce of water weighs one ounce.
  - usrbinbash 4y ago

mulmen 4y ago

Americans use the metric system every day. And what's wrong with a penny? Decimal currency has to retain a fundamental unit or there are some amounts that can't be created.

b112 4y ago
I don't have a horse in this race, but I think what the commenter meant was, some places don't use the penny any more. In Canada, the penny is gone. It was too expensive to keep (cost of producing them is just silly, for their value of 1 cent.). So prices are just rounded when using cash: https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/programs/about-canada-revenue-agency-cra/phasing-penny.html https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/programs/about-canad... In as the penny was effectively worthless even a decade ago (when this was done), it just makes sense. I can't think of a single person, or retailer, who cared. Most approved of it. So, that's probably what someone meant by the penny comment. Whether the US should do the same? I don't know. I just know it worked out very easily, and well, in Canada.
- mulmen 4y ago
  > cost of producing them is just silly, for their value of 1 cent. I don't understand this argument. A penny is not disposable. They last for decades, being used in thousands of transactions. It only has to generate more economic value in its life than it cost to produce. The face value is irrelevant. Dropping the penny just means you changed the resolution of your currency from 100ths to 20ths. Can I still run a credit card transaction for $1.17 in Canada? > I just know it worked out very easily, and well, in Canada. What benefits did Canada realize with this change?
  - b112 4y ago
    Read some of the info / stats here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penny_(Canadian_coin)#Abolition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penny_(Canadian_coin)#Abolitio... The real problem is that pennies are worth nothing, (1 cent has no real value for people), so people hoard them, or don't care if they are damaged/lost. Add to that, the cost of the metal is more than the face value, so illegal or not, people can buy them and profit by destroying them. Look at these stats: * A 2007 survey indicated that 37 percent of Canadians used pennies, but the government continued to produce about 816 million pennies per year, equal to 24 pennies per Canadian. * In 2011 the Royal Canadian Mint had minted 1.1 billion pennies Spending millions yearly, because people don't care, isn't sensible. And yes, electronic means to the penny, cash means rounding. Who cares? It all evens out in the end, and 2 cents is nothing, yet it saves tens of millions a year. Not to mention, counting all those pennies for no reason. You know how it worked for me? I'd get paid in cash, get a few pennies, and at end of day throw them on my dresser. Do you think I put them in my pocket, to count out next time? No. No one did. Because it isn't worth the energy or time. We'll probably phase out the nickle soon.