7 ms·

It reminds me of the Phineas Fisher quote: "...Hacker culture was born in the US as a counterculture, but that origin only remains in its aesthetics — the rest

It reminds me of the Phineas Fisher quote: "...Hacker culture was born in the US as a counterculture, but that origin only remains in its aesthetics — the rest has been assimilated. At least they can wear a t-shirt, dye their hair blue, use their hacker names, and feel like rebels while they work for the Man."

ok123456 4y ago
Agree. It's cringe and yikes.
- leetbulb 4y ago
  The essence of hacking culture remains with Hacktivism, hacking "for the Man," and everything in-between as it is all still...hacking. The profession attracts a very specific type of person and greatly rewards those who excel. Why is the culture considered lost if state-sactioned? In my opinion, that would be some of the most exciting exposure, with an added benefit of zero legal woes.
  - whythre 4y ago
    Because you can’t be punk if the government is writing your checks. You are the beast, not the scrappy underdog.
    - zamnos 4y ago
      Throw in some geopolitics then. Hack Russia for Ukraine if you have to feel like the scrappy underdog while working for "the man".
      - komali2 4y ago
        In my opinion this genuinely only works if you are doing this separate from The State. Like I always told myself if the PRC actually invades Taiwan, I'll drop everything and dedicate my life to solo / group finding ways to harm the PRC digitally. I bet there are agencies in the USA where I could get paid to do the same, but then I'm working for the USA government, who is also the enemy of my values, maybe not as much as the PRC but still. It's a pretty common trope that a revolutionary (a cultural mindset I think hackers adopt) will sometimes / inevitably need to adopt the tactics of their enemy, but even if that's a truism, you certainly don't need to work for them. You can find your own way, especially in hacking. Because when you go to the NSA to hack Russia, you have no guarantee you'll actually be assigned that task. They might ask you to first hack the leader of a "potential terrorist organization," then you do so and it turns out it was an activist leader in the Black Lives Matter movement. What are you gonna do, complain to your boss? And, now you're a Fed. Now you can't even turn around and be a whistleblower or whatever because the State knows EVERYTHING about you, background checked you, and can smack you with a legal baseball bat if you act against their interests, slapping you with charges like "sharing state secrets" or whatever else they can dream up about confidential State information and technology. No thanks. Like others are say, you can't be punk and a fed. Anyway we're drawing fake lines in the sand here. Even if the PRC and the USA are at war, they're probably doing so at the whims of the real "Man," that being capital interests, corporations and billionaires. By plugging into the USA "side" you're just working for corporate interests in the end.
    - nine_k 4y ago
      But being the underdog is not necessarily the most exciting part. It's standing against a formidable adversary, autonomy, and mastering the technology so deeply as to use it well past its design limits what attracts many hacker types. It can be pretty compatible with being a secret agent at Her Majesty's service, for instance. (These qualities are not entirely unlike the qualities that define e.g. an elite fighter jet pilot. But you can't realistically be an elite fighter jet pilot and an underground punk.)
      - forgetfulness 4y ago
        That's just called being a boot. You don't have much choice in fighting off Putin or environmentalists in third world countries when ordered to, you're now Serving Your Country.
  - flangola7 4y ago
    You can't fight for and against the man at the same time.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  - CTDOCodebases 4y ago
    > hacking "for the Man," and everything in-between as it is all still...hacking. I think it would be fair to distinguish between the activity of hacking and the spirit of hacking. The author of the quote is pointing out the cognitive dissonance in regards to the spirit.
robotnikman 4y ago
Yep, there are no longer individual vigilante hackers, they are all working for corporations or governments now.
- Retr0id 4y ago
  The quote you're replying to is from one (admittedly, from several years ago). It does seem to be getting rarer, but consider that the ones still active might not want to make themselves publicly known.
- Nova0G 4y ago
  There definitely still is... But I think after circa 2012 when people found out the Anonymous movement was just a cia/fbi Honeypot, no grass roots hacker groups publicly advertise.
  - Wagthesam 4y ago
    What, it was? I went to an anon anti Scientology protest once. Was I just being used?
    - uni_rule 4y ago
      Due to the nature of it being a label anyone can take on it can be used by anyone, including state actors, just to rack on a layer of extra plausible deniably when wanted. That doesn't mean the organization itself was ever or always compromised, just that the label could be used by pretty much anyone.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
- djtango 4y ago
  Don't some people make a living solely off bounty hunting..? Please don't shatter my reality like that
Barrin92 4y ago
>and feel like rebels while they work for the Man." it is significantly more subversive to slowly, dilligently and without much attention change existing institutions rather than 'sticking it to the man'. That's the difference between teenager hacktivism and effectively pursuing change. The boring, blue haired kids at gov. institutions are going to run them in 20-30 years. Obnoxious, loud, visible activism or counter-culture usually just exists to draw attention to itself while generally getting nothing done, and even taking pride in that fact.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- otr2k22 4y ago
  This was a tactic used by the german far left around rudi dutschke and to some extend the RAF. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_march_through_the_institutions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_march_through_the_institu... imho it didn't go very well, they all got assimilated in the end. ( for germans see Joschka Fischer ).
- Mezzie 4y ago
  The two types of activism are symbiotic. The obnoxious, loud, and visible activism takes the attention (and resources) while test ballooning the expanding or moving of the Overton Window. Changing institutions without drawing attention is way easier when someone else is drawing the attention, and louder activists are also a great 'stick' for convincing others to do things your way: "Well, if we don't do this, those people might be the ones making these decisions...' And from a loud activist point of view, the slow and steady/sneaky workers are the ones who can do things like bail people out of jail, funnel money and information, etc.
poulpy123 4y ago
to be fair it's like most counter-culture (there are always exceptions of course)
- CTDOCodebases 3y ago
  True. People either get old and less idealistic in the process or they just realise they don't have the power to change things and instead focus on other things which they do have power to change e.g. their position within society or the the amount of interaction they have with society. Regardless of how good it feels to express discontent towards the status quo there is a cost to giving society the middle finger.
whoknew1122 4y ago
I dunno. I like being able to go to work in a t-shirt and shorts, make really good money, and not look over my shoulder wondering if today is the day one of my co-workers fucks up their opsec and gets me caught up. Phineas Fisher can look down their nose at me, but I got clean money and avoided the drugs and gang culture that took out so many of the associates I had growing up. If working for the man is losing, give me another L.

ok123456 4y ago

Agree. It's cringe and yikes.

leetbulb 4y ago
The essence of hacking culture remains with Hacktivism, hacking "for the Man," and everything in-between as it is all still...hacking. The profession attracts a very specific type of person and greatly rewards those who excel. Why is the culture considered lost if state-sactioned? In my opinion, that would be some of the most exciting exposure, with an added benefit of zero legal woes.
- whythre 4y ago
  Because you can’t be punk if the government is writing your checks. You are the beast, not the scrappy underdog.
  - zamnos 4y ago
    Throw in some geopolitics then. Hack Russia for Ukraine if you have to feel like the scrappy underdog while working for "the man".
    - komali2 4y ago
      In my opinion this genuinely only works if you are doing this separate from The State. Like I always told myself if the PRC actually invades Taiwan, I'll drop everything and dedicate my life to solo / group finding ways to harm the PRC digitally. I bet there are agencies in the USA where I could get paid to do the same, but then I'm working for the USA government, who is also the enemy of my values, maybe not as much as the PRC but still. It's a pretty common trope that a revolutionary (a cultural mindset I think hackers adopt) will sometimes / inevitably need to adopt the tactics of their enemy, but even if that's a truism, you certainly don't need to work for them. You can find your own way, especially in hacking. Because when you go to the NSA to hack Russia, you have no guarantee you'll actually be assigned that task. They might ask you to first hack the leader of a "potential terrorist organization," then you do so and it turns out it was an activist leader in the Black Lives Matter movement. What are you gonna do, complain to your boss? And, now you're a Fed. Now you can't even turn around and be a whistleblower or whatever because the State knows EVERYTHING about you, background checked you, and can smack you with a legal baseball bat if you act against their interests, slapping you with charges like "sharing state secrets" or whatever else they can dream up about confidential State information and technology. No thanks. Like others are say, you can't be punk and a fed. Anyway we're drawing fake lines in the sand here. Even if the PRC and the USA are at war, they're probably doing so at the whims of the real "Man," that being capital interests, corporations and billionaires. By plugging into the USA "side" you're just working for corporate interests in the end.
  - nine_k 4y ago
    But being the underdog is not necessarily the most exciting part. It's standing against a formidable adversary, autonomy, and mastering the technology so deeply as to use it well past its design limits what attracts many hacker types. It can be pretty compatible with being a secret agent at Her Majesty's service, for instance. (These qualities are not entirely unlike the qualities that define e.g. an elite fighter jet pilot. But you can't realistically be an elite fighter jet pilot and an underground punk.)
    - forgetfulness 4y ago
      That's just called being a boot. You don't have much choice in fighting off Putin or environmentalists in third world countries when ordered to, you're now Serving Your Country.
- flangola7 4y ago
  You can't fight for and against the man at the same time.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- CTDOCodebases 4y ago
  > hacking "for the Man," and everything in-between as it is all still...hacking. I think it would be fair to distinguish between the activity of hacking and the spirit of hacking. The author of the quote is pointing out the cognitive dissonance in regards to the spirit.

robotnikman 4y ago

Yep, there are no longer individual vigilante hackers, they are all working for corporations or governments now.

Retr0id 4y ago
The quote you're replying to is from one (admittedly, from several years ago). It does seem to be getting rarer, but consider that the ones still active might not want to make themselves publicly known.
Nova0G 4y ago
There definitely still is... But I think after circa 2012 when people found out the Anonymous movement was just a cia/fbi Honeypot, no grass roots hacker groups publicly advertise.
- Wagthesam 4y ago
  What, it was? I went to an anon anti Scientology protest once. Was I just being used?
  - uni_rule 4y ago
    Due to the nature of it being a label anyone can take on it can be used by anyone, including state actors, just to rack on a layer of extra plausible deniably when wanted. That doesn't mean the organization itself was ever or always compromised, just that the label could be used by pretty much anyone.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
djtango 4y ago
Don't some people make a living solely off bounty hunting..? Please don't shatter my reality like that

Barrin92 4y ago

>and feel like rebels while they work for the Man." it is significantly more subversive to slowly, dilligently and without much attention change existing institutions rather than 'sticking it to the man'. That's the difference between teenager hacktivism and effectively pursuing change. The boring, blue haired kids at gov. institutions are going to run them in 20-30 years. Obnoxious, loud, visible activism or counter-culture usually just exists to draw attention to itself while generally getting nothing done, and even taking pride in that fact.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
otr2k22 4y ago
This was a tactic used by the german far left around rudi dutschke and to some extend the RAF. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_march_through_the_institutions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_march_through_the_institu... imho it didn't go very well, they all got assimilated in the end. ( for germans see Joschka Fischer ).
Mezzie 4y ago
The two types of activism are symbiotic. The obnoxious, loud, and visible activism takes the attention (and resources) while test ballooning the expanding or moving of the Overton Window. Changing institutions without drawing attention is way easier when someone else is drawing the attention, and louder activists are also a great 'stick' for convincing others to do things your way: "Well, if we don't do this, those people might be the ones making these decisions...' And from a loud activist point of view, the slow and steady/sneaky workers are the ones who can do things like bail people out of jail, funnel money and information, etc.

poulpy123 4y ago

to be fair it's like most counter-culture (there are always exceptions of course)

CTDOCodebases 3y ago
True. People either get old and less idealistic in the process or they just realise they don't have the power to change things and instead focus on other things which they do have power to change e.g. their position within society or the the amount of interaction they have with society. Regardless of how good it feels to express discontent towards the status quo there is a cost to giving society the middle finger.

whoknew1122 4y ago

I dunno. I like being able to go to work in a t-shirt and shorts, make really good money, and not look over my shoulder wondering if today is the day one of my co-workers fucks up their opsec and gets me caught up. Phineas Fisher can look down their nose at me, but I got clean money and avoided the drugs and gang culture that took out so many of the associates I had growing up. If working for the man is losing, give me another L.