5 ms·

ICE Is Grabbing Data from Schools and Abortion Clinics

70 points by arkadiyt 4y ago

ignoramceisblis 4y ago
Already posted yesterday: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35423122 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35423122
- EarthIsHome 4y ago
  Sure, but there was no discussion on it in the thread you linked.
dsfyu404ed 4y ago
You reap what you sow. Those techniques and legal doctrines people are so eager for when they're used against tax dodging crypto bros, drug runners and petty scofflaws (or illegal immigrants and abortion clinics if those are groups you don't like) don't end there. So long as people feel justified remaining quiet when these affronts to privacy, freedom and rule of law are perpetrated against people they don't like there will never be critical mass of opposition to challenge them even when they are perpetrated against people they do like (because whoever you feel justified speaking up to defend others will inevitably not).
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- neuronexmachina 4y ago
  Do you have some other examples where 1509 custom summonses were abused, but the abuse didn't get enough attention? This is honestly the first I've heard of them: > The 1509 customs summons is an administrative subpoena explicitly and exclusively meant for use in investigations of illegal imports or unpaid customs duties under a law known as Title 19 US Code 1509. Its goal is to provide agencies like ICE with a way to obtain business records from companies without having to go to a judge for a warrant. > The subpoena-tracking database that WIRED obtained offers the most detailed breakdown of how ICE has been using the customs summons to date. The data shows that between January 4, 2016, and August 22, 2022, ICE issued 172,679 summonses, averaging more than 70 per day. Half of these were sent to telecommunications companies like AT&T, T-Mobile, and Comcast. Big technology companies like Google, Meta, and Microsoft collectively received nearly 15,000 summonses. Of the thousands of summonses sent to social media companies, Meta and Snapchat make up the vast majority.
  - garbagecoder 4y ago
    So, if what the article says is true, it should be inadmissible in any other kind of preceding once a judge gets in the mix. The real problem is that it appears that there's no due process in issuing the subpoena, at least what it seems like. A normal subpoena can be objected to and limited if it's not valid, though most third parties have little incentive to fight it. The problem is that all of this information is being collected and is subject to subpoena. Just because they don't get it with one of these doesn't mean it can't be had. So the reason no one is paying any attention is because until they have an example of it being used to do anything other than collect data. That can be bad, but it's not the same as it being used later to, say, prosecute people.
- garbagecoder 4y ago
  The reason slippery slope arguments don't hold up like that is because as you say there will never be a critical mass against something until it's being used for something people don't agree with. Wishing it weren't so because it shouldn't be so is just as fruitless as people doing nothing.
exabrial 4y ago
[flagged]
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- stonogo 4y ago
  Sounds to me like minority citizens have more autonomy over when and how they start a family than ever before. Each of your "victims of abortion" is a victory for self-determination.
  - patrick451 4y ago
    > Each of your "victims of abortion" is a victory for self-determination. Only for half the parties involved.
    - CamperBob2 4y ago
      Fetuses don't exercise self-determination in any other respects. They don't yet have a concept of "self."
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
garbagecoder 4y ago
None of this should be an issue if there was a judge in the loop.
- scarface74 4y ago
  You trust judges to do the right thing? The time period that this happens encompasses both Trump and Biden - meaning you can’t trust the government not to trample your rights no matter who is in power.
  - stonogo 4y ago
    What alternative are you proposing?
    - scarface74 4y ago
      Remove the tools by passing narrower laws.
      - garbagecoder 4y ago
        You trust the judges to follow the narrower laws but not the existing ones? You make zero sense.
  - garbagecoder 4y ago
    If I can't trust judges will get it right mostly then what does it matter what the law says? If there's no bottom who cares? If everyone is corrupt and nothing matters then what do you suggest? At least paranoid libertarians used to be in favor of more due process, which is what I'm suggesting. Now what do you suggest then? The fact is there will always be business record subpoenas as long as we have a justice system. At least with a judge someone can decide whether it's being used correctly. All of this data is out there. If that's your objection, make it. But we will always be able to collect it if it matters. At least with some process it will be less likely to be abused.
ars 4y ago
This is a flamebait title. Suggestion (from the subtitle): ICE Is using 1509 summonses that experts say raises the specter of potential abuse.
- OneLeggedCat 4y ago
  That's a lot of summonses.
  - 29083011397778 4y ago
    Especially considering they were issued over 170,000 times over the last six years. Though I'm sure you knew that, having read TFA.
SamoyedFurFluff 4y ago
Deep anxiety that ICE is taking a summons intended for a narrow purview and applying it to a wide swath of things. Is there anything we laypeople can do about it?

70 points by arkadiyt 4y ago

ignoramceisblis 4y ago

Already posted yesterday: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35423122 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35423122

EarthIsHome 4y ago
Sure, but there was no discussion on it in the thread you linked.

dsfyu404ed 4y ago

You reap what you sow. Those techniques and legal doctrines people are so eager for when they're used against tax dodging crypto bros, drug runners and petty scofflaws (or illegal immigrants and abortion clinics if those are groups you don't like) don't end there. So long as people feel justified remaining quiet when these affronts to privacy, freedom and rule of law are perpetrated against people they don't like there will never be critical mass of opposition to challenge them even when they are perpetrated against people they do like (because whoever you feel justified speaking up to defend others will inevitably not).

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
neuronexmachina 4y ago
Do you have some other examples where 1509 custom summonses were abused, but the abuse didn't get enough attention? This is honestly the first I've heard of them: > The 1509 customs summons is an administrative subpoena explicitly and exclusively meant for use in investigations of illegal imports or unpaid customs duties under a law known as Title 19 US Code 1509. Its goal is to provide agencies like ICE with a way to obtain business records from companies without having to go to a judge for a warrant. > The subpoena-tracking database that WIRED obtained offers the most detailed breakdown of how ICE has been using the customs summons to date. The data shows that between January 4, 2016, and August 22, 2022, ICE issued 172,679 summonses, averaging more than 70 per day. Half of these were sent to telecommunications companies like AT&T, T-Mobile, and Comcast. Big technology companies like Google, Meta, and Microsoft collectively received nearly 15,000 summonses. Of the thousands of summonses sent to social media companies, Meta and Snapchat make up the vast majority.
- garbagecoder 4y ago
  So, if what the article says is true, it should be inadmissible in any other kind of preceding once a judge gets in the mix. The real problem is that it appears that there's no due process in issuing the subpoena, at least what it seems like. A normal subpoena can be objected to and limited if it's not valid, though most third parties have little incentive to fight it. The problem is that all of this information is being collected and is subject to subpoena. Just because they don't get it with one of these doesn't mean it can't be had. So the reason no one is paying any attention is because until they have an example of it being used to do anything other than collect data. That can be bad, but it's not the same as it being used later to, say, prosecute people.
garbagecoder 4y ago
The reason slippery slope arguments don't hold up like that is because as you say there will never be a critical mass against something until it's being used for something people don't agree with. Wishing it weren't so because it shouldn't be so is just as fruitless as people doing nothing.

exabrial 4y ago

[flagged]

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
stonogo 4y ago
Sounds to me like minority citizens have more autonomy over when and how they start a family than ever before. Each of your "victims of abortion" is a victory for self-determination.
- patrick451 4y ago
  > Each of your "victims of abortion" is a victory for self-determination. Only for half the parties involved.
  - CamperBob2 4y ago
    Fetuses don't exercise self-determination in any other respects. They don't yet have a concept of "self."
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

garbagecoder 4y ago

None of this should be an issue if there was a judge in the loop.

scarface74 4y ago
You trust judges to do the right thing? The time period that this happens encompasses both Trump and Biden - meaning you can’t trust the government not to trample your rights no matter who is in power.
- stonogo 4y ago
  What alternative are you proposing?
  - scarface74 4y ago
    Remove the tools by passing narrower laws.
    - garbagecoder 4y ago
      You trust the judges to follow the narrower laws but not the existing ones? You make zero sense.
- garbagecoder 4y ago
  If I can't trust judges will get it right mostly then what does it matter what the law says? If there's no bottom who cares? If everyone is corrupt and nothing matters then what do you suggest? At least paranoid libertarians used to be in favor of more due process, which is what I'm suggesting. Now what do you suggest then? The fact is there will always be business record subpoenas as long as we have a justice system. At least with a judge someone can decide whether it's being used correctly. All of this data is out there. If that's your objection, make it. But we will always be able to collect it if it matters. At least with some process it will be less likely to be abused.

ars 4y ago

This is a flamebait title. Suggestion (from the subtitle): ICE Is using 1509 summonses that experts say raises the specter of potential abuse.

OneLeggedCat 4y ago
That's a lot of summonses.
- 29083011397778 4y ago
  Especially considering they were issued over 170,000 times over the last six years. Though I'm sure you knew that, having read TFA.

SamoyedFurFluff 4y ago

Deep anxiety that ICE is taking a summons intended for a narrow purview and applying it to a wide swath of things. Is there anything we laypeople can do about it?