4 ms·

Oof this isn't good. At best they've got him on a technicality. More realistically they're testing a novel legal theory against a former President for acts th

by treis 4y ago

Oof this isn't good. At best they've got him on a technicality. More realistically they're testing a novel legal theory against a former President for acts that aren't against the spirit of the underlying law. I can't believe that of all the things Trump has done this is what he gets charged for.

manuelabeledo 4y ago
But wouldn't it be funny if his indictment ends up a cliche, like Capone's was?
- skissane 4y ago
  I doubt a single judge had any sympathy for Al Capone though. Even if they got him on a technicality, they were glad to get him. His appeals failed. Trump will take this all the way to the Supreme Court if he has to. The conservative legal establishment (Federalist Society, etc) are going to be filing amicus briefs in his favour. Decent odds the conservative majority will find the arguments of their old friends convincing, and overturn Trump's convictions. That's if it ever even gets that far.
  - ModernMech 4y ago
    IANAL, but I don’t think it’s possible to appeal a state case to SCOTUS.
    - jfengel 4y ago
      Not directly, but you can sue the state court in federal court. The federal court can't overturn the conviction directly but it can force guidance on the state court and compel them to re-hear the case.
      - ModernMech 4y ago
        > force guidance on the state court and compel them to re-hear the case. How could they enforce this? If a state jails a criminal, and his friends on a federal court tell the state to rehear the case of their friend, what’s stopping the state from saying no?
        jfengel 4y ago
        The Supremacy Clause (Article VI, clause 2) lets the federal court dictate how the state court must read the law. If the federal court says, for example, "The law under which he was convicted is unconstitutional", then the first thing that will happen is that the criminal's lawyers will ask the state court to dismiss the suit since there's no law to be violated. And the court would grant it unless the prosecutors have some major ace up their sleeve. The state court could just ignore it, and kick off a massive constitutional crisis. Which could well be justified, if the only reason for it was a federal court packed with friends of the criminal.
        skissane 4y ago
        Federal courts can order someone released from state custody using habeas corpus. If the state court refuses to hold a retrial after a federal court tells them to, the federal court will order the person released. If the state prison/jail refuses to obey a federal court order, in theory the US Marshals turn up and use physical force to make the state officials free the person. Of course, that never happens, because state officials aren’t so dumb as to refuse to obey a federal court order. Also, if they did, they could end up personally facing federal criminal charges.
      - skissane 4y ago
        You can directly appeal to SCOTUS from highest court in each state. And then you can collateral appeal the conviction through habeas corpus. In practice, SCOTUS almost always denies cert on direct appeals in state criminal cases, even though it ends up hearing a small handful of them on collateral appeal-the fact you almost never succeed in getting a hearing is why some people seem to wrongly believe you can’t ever. But this is far from a normal case.
    - skissane 4y ago
      Yes you can, although only if you raise federal constitutional arguments, or other arguments based on federal law - if your only argument is that the state court got state law wrong, SCOTUS must reject it. Direct appeal is from the highest court in the state directly to SCOTUS, bypassing the rest of the federal courts. There is also indirect/collateral appeal, in which you aren’t appealing the state case, you are launching a new federal case as a habeas corpus petition or 42 USC 1983 civil suit.

by treis 4y ago

manuelabeledo 4y ago

But wouldn't it be funny if his indictment ends up a cliche, like Capone's was?

skissane 4y ago
I doubt a single judge had any sympathy for Al Capone though. Even if they got him on a technicality, they were glad to get him. His appeals failed. Trump will take this all the way to the Supreme Court if he has to. The conservative legal establishment (Federalist Society, etc) are going to be filing amicus briefs in his favour. Decent odds the conservative majority will find the arguments of their old friends convincing, and overturn Trump's convictions. That's if it ever even gets that far.
- ModernMech 4y ago
  IANAL, but I don’t think it’s possible to appeal a state case to SCOTUS.
  - jfengel 4y ago
    Not directly, but you can sue the state court in federal court. The federal court can't overturn the conviction directly but it can force guidance on the state court and compel them to re-hear the case.
    - ModernMech 4y ago
      > force guidance on the state court and compel them to re-hear the case. How could they enforce this? If a state jails a criminal, and his friends on a federal court tell the state to rehear the case of their friend, what’s stopping the state from saying no?
      - jfengel 4y ago
        The Supremacy Clause (Article VI, clause 2) lets the federal court dictate how the state court must read the law. If the federal court says, for example, "The law under which he was convicted is unconstitutional", then the first thing that will happen is that the criminal's lawyers will ask the state court to dismiss the suit since there's no law to be violated. And the court would grant it unless the prosecutors have some major ace up their sleeve. The state court could just ignore it, and kick off a massive constitutional crisis. Which could well be justified, if the only reason for it was a federal court packed with friends of the criminal.
      - skissane 4y ago
        Federal courts can order someone released from state custody using habeas corpus. If the state court refuses to hold a retrial after a federal court tells them to, the federal court will order the person released. If the state prison/jail refuses to obey a federal court order, in theory the US Marshals turn up and use physical force to make the state officials free the person. Of course, that never happens, because state officials aren’t so dumb as to refuse to obey a federal court order. Also, if they did, they could end up personally facing federal criminal charges.
    - skissane 4y ago
      You can directly appeal to SCOTUS from highest court in each state. And then you can collateral appeal the conviction through habeas corpus. In practice, SCOTUS almost always denies cert on direct appeals in state criminal cases, even though it ends up hearing a small handful of them on collateral appeal-the fact you almost never succeed in getting a hearing is why some people seem to wrongly believe you can’t ever. But this is far from a normal case.
  - skissane 4y ago
    Yes you can, although only if you raise federal constitutional arguments, or other arguments based on federal law - if your only argument is that the state court got state law wrong, SCOTUS must reject it. Direct appeal is from the highest court in the state directly to SCOTUS, bypassing the rest of the federal courts. There is also indirect/collateral appeal, in which you aren’t appealing the state case, you are launching a new federal case as a habeas corpus petition or 42 USC 1983 civil suit.