4 ms·

Well, both Apple and Google want to all but replace the whole "PC paradigm" with iOS and Android. The iPad already re-uses most of the code for the iPhone versi

Well, both Apple and Google want to all but replace the whole "PC paradigm" with iOS and Android. The iPad already re-uses most of the code for the iPhone version, except with some design tweaks, and with Android it's the same. I can't see how this WP8/W8 "integration" could possibly be anymore "integrated" that what Apple and Google already have for both phones and tablets/hybrid devices. Also, I can't help but think that Microsft will take the whole "homogenization" of platforms between mouse-driven PC, touch-driven tablet, and phones, a little too far. Some form factors do need optimized UI's and code for that form factor or device type. You can't just use a one-size-fits-all for everything. It would be like Google using the phone UI for Google TV. It would be a mess.

brudgers 15y ago
>"I can't see how this WP8/W8 "integration" could possibly be anymore "integrated" that what Apple and Google already have for both phones and tablets/hybrid devices." Developers! can use NET and Visual Studio from the compact framework on phones via Silverlight, right on up to Windows Server at your DataCenter. Developers! get a continuous stack. Developers! can integrate everything from an ATM to a Website. [edits: formatting, add quote to which I was responding.]
- bad_user 15y ago
  Does Visual Studio run on Linux or OS X? I'm asking because IntelliJ IDEA and Java do and I'm not leaving my POSIX toolchain for Visual Studio, no matter how awesome it is. If you want a "continuous stack" there's nothing better than Java. And yet many developers still hate it, while many love the extremely limited iOS platform, which goes to show that this trait is not so important as one might think.
  - untog 15y ago
    It doesn't, no. MonoDevelop is an attempt to make something that will, but it's... iffy. I suspect there isn't any easy solution to this one- same as there's no easy way to make OS X/iOS apps without running OS X yourself.
  - brudgers 15y ago
    Java has its merits. Close integration with the OS is not one of them. Standard graphics libraries which meet contemporary expectations is also unfortunately missing. There's nothing wrong with Java as a development environment, but the cost of "getting Java on the phone" is at best comparable to support for Windows (and at worst you're dealing with Oracle).
    - moonchrome 15y ago
      >Standard graphics libraries which meet contemporary expectations is also unfortunately missing. JavaFX 2, with rumored support for iOS and Android (likely WP8 if it has native code)
      - recoiledsnake 15y ago
        Aren't frameworks explicitly banned by the iOS App Store EULA ?
      - brudgers 15y ago
        Of course, somewhat ironically, JavaFX 2 runtime is available for Windows only. And it is unlikely that WP8 will have a JVM.
        pjmlp 15y ago
        It is already available as beta for Linux and Mac OS X as well.
        moonchrome 15y ago
        >And it is unlikely that WP8 will have a JVM. And iOS doesn't have a CLI VM but it still runs C#. Same thing for WP8, JVM can be packed with the app and AOT compiled to native code, maybe even JIT-ed if WP8 kernel allows it.
    - stcredzero 15y ago
      Java has its merits. Close integration with the OS is not one of them. We're at the point now, where OS and language should merge. There should be a user data-centric design, with abstractions for the underlying hardware, so that most applications can be written across all of a user's devices, with "skins" for different particular form factors.
aik 15y ago
This is exactly what makes it exciting for me. Microsoft is trying a fairly innovative thing here -- it's risky and perhaps too idealistic, but if they can pull it off so it works well, it'll be hard to beat.
cooldeal 15y ago
I think WP8/W8 integration is rather overblown, but the difference in approaches seems to be that Apple and Google are scaling up phone OSes to a tablet OS, whereas MS seems to be scaling down a desktop OS to a tablet, while simultaneously taking the UI paradigm of their phone OS and scaling it up to tablet/desktop. This means you can dock your Win 8 x86 tablet with a keyboard/mouse and be using the power of full Windows. You can write code for the tablet and debug it from the very same tablet using Visual Studio. You can't really do that with iPads and Android tablets which are relegated to being consumption devices only.
- brudgers 15y ago
  Microsoft sees mobile devices as computers and Microsoft Research is working on a practical IDE for them via TouchDevelop which gives access to most phone features: http://www.touchdevelop.com/help/api http://www.touchdevelop.com/help/api There appears to be a vision of a commodity phone running Windows Phone as the "computer on every desk" for the developing world - it's probably no accident that Microsoft teamed up with Nokia.
  - freehunter 15y ago
    TouchDevelop is powerful as hell. It's not VC++ by any means, but you can access all of the phones features and data, and develop quite complex applications without actually typing any code. Putting that into Windows 8 Desktop would be a great move, and allowing those scripts into the Marketplace (or someplace where they can be sold and marketed) would be even better. Right now there is a repository for the scripts, but it's sorely lacking in features compared to the Marketplace.
stcredzero 15y ago
I can't see how this WP8/W8 "integration" could possibly be anymore "integrated" that what Apple and Google already have for both phones and tablets/hybrid devices. I can see how: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3544522 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3544522

brudgers 15y ago

>"I can't see how this WP8/W8 "integration" could possibly be anymore "integrated" that what Apple and Google already have for both phones and tablets/hybrid devices." Developers! can use NET and Visual Studio from the compact framework on phones via Silverlight, right on up to Windows Server at your DataCenter. Developers! get a continuous stack. Developers! can integrate everything from an ATM to a Website. [edits: formatting, add quote to which I was responding.]

bad_user 15y ago
Does Visual Studio run on Linux or OS X? I'm asking because IntelliJ IDEA and Java do and I'm not leaving my POSIX toolchain for Visual Studio, no matter how awesome it is. If you want a "continuous stack" there's nothing better than Java. And yet many developers still hate it, while many love the extremely limited iOS platform, which goes to show that this trait is not so important as one might think.
- untog 15y ago
  It doesn't, no. MonoDevelop is an attempt to make something that will, but it's... iffy. I suspect there isn't any easy solution to this one- same as there's no easy way to make OS X/iOS apps without running OS X yourself.
- brudgers 15y ago
  Java has its merits. Close integration with the OS is not one of them. Standard graphics libraries which meet contemporary expectations is also unfortunately missing. There's nothing wrong with Java as a development environment, but the cost of "getting Java on the phone" is at best comparable to support for Windows (and at worst you're dealing with Oracle).
  - moonchrome 15y ago
    >Standard graphics libraries which meet contemporary expectations is also unfortunately missing. JavaFX 2, with rumored support for iOS and Android (likely WP8 if it has native code)
    - recoiledsnake 15y ago
      Aren't frameworks explicitly banned by the iOS App Store EULA ?
    - brudgers 15y ago
      Of course, somewhat ironically, JavaFX 2 runtime is available for Windows only. And it is unlikely that WP8 will have a JVM.
      - pjmlp 15y ago
        It is already available as beta for Linux and Mac OS X as well.
      - moonchrome 15y ago
        >And it is unlikely that WP8 will have a JVM. And iOS doesn't have a CLI VM but it still runs C#. Same thing for WP8, JVM can be packed with the app and AOT compiled to native code, maybe even JIT-ed if WP8 kernel allows it.
  - stcredzero 15y ago
    Java has its merits. Close integration with the OS is not one of them. We're at the point now, where OS and language should merge. There should be a user data-centric design, with abstractions for the underlying hardware, so that most applications can be written across all of a user's devices, with "skins" for different particular form factors.

aik 15y ago

This is exactly what makes it exciting for me. Microsoft is trying a fairly innovative thing here -- it's risky and perhaps too idealistic, but if they can pull it off so it works well, it'll be hard to beat.

cooldeal 15y ago

I think WP8/W8 integration is rather overblown, but the difference in approaches seems to be that Apple and Google are scaling up phone OSes to a tablet OS, whereas MS seems to be scaling down a desktop OS to a tablet, while simultaneously taking the UI paradigm of their phone OS and scaling it up to tablet/desktop. This means you can dock your Win 8 x86 tablet with a keyboard/mouse and be using the power of full Windows. You can write code for the tablet and debug it from the very same tablet using Visual Studio. You can't really do that with iPads and Android tablets which are relegated to being consumption devices only.

brudgers 15y ago
Microsoft sees mobile devices as computers and Microsoft Research is working on a practical IDE for them via TouchDevelop which gives access to most phone features: http://www.touchdevelop.com/help/api http://www.touchdevelop.com/help/api There appears to be a vision of a commodity phone running Windows Phone as the "computer on every desk" for the developing world - it's probably no accident that Microsoft teamed up with Nokia.
- freehunter 15y ago
  TouchDevelop is powerful as hell. It's not VC++ by any means, but you can access all of the phones features and data, and develop quite complex applications without actually typing any code. Putting that into Windows 8 Desktop would be a great move, and allowing those scripts into the Marketplace (or someplace where they can be sold and marketed) would be even better. Right now there is a repository for the scripts, but it's sorely lacking in features compared to the Marketplace.

stcredzero 15y ago

I can't see how this WP8/W8 "integration" could possibly be anymore "integrated" that what Apple and Google already have for both phones and tablets/hybrid devices. I can see how: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3544522 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3544522