3 ms·

Can someone tell me if there's actually any geographical sense in putting a fab in Arizona? I admit it seems like the height of madness to put a fab somewhere w

by kibwen 4y ago

Can someone tell me if there's actually any geographical sense in putting a fab in Arizona? I admit it seems like the height of madness to put a fab somewhere with so little water.

JumpCrisscross 4y ago
> geographical sense in putting a fab in Arizona Geologically stable and proximate to rail and truck junctures.
- bilbo0s 4y ago
  and proximate to rail and truck junctures Apparently not if they need to build the rail and highway interchanges. I think what happened is the politicians promised these things to chip manufacturers because they thought the buildout would be a formality. But political reality is taking those promises off the table.
- cmrdporcupine 4y ago
  Sounds to me like the great lakes region would make more sense then. Same reason it was industrialized 100 years ago in the first place. Excellent shipping routes, access to copious fresh water. And, yeah, geologically stable. They should build a fab in Michigan or Ontario. Labour is cheaper up in Canada, too.
  - shagie 4y ago
    The Great Lakes have international restrictions on what the water may be used for and requirements for it to be returned to the watershed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Lakes_Compact https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Lakes_Compact
    - kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
      IC fabs don't export their water.
      - shagie 4y ago
        If they discharge it through a cooling tower, that counts as not returning it to water basin (note that nuclear plants on the lakes don't have cooling towers... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_Beach_Nuclear_Plant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_Beach_Nuclear_Plant - which has other problems, but water diversions aren't one of them).
        kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
        Yes they do: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davis%E2%80%93Besse_Nuclear_Power_Station https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davis%E2%80%93Besse_Nuclear_Po...
        shagie 4y ago
        Fair 'nuff... that falls under the existing when the compact was signed ( https://www.glslcompactcouncil.org/historical-information/baseline-database/details?id=OH-00598 https://www.glslcompactcouncil.org/historical-information/ba... ). A new diversion of that nature wouldn't be allowed.
  - rblatz 4y ago
    Intel is building a fab in Columbus Ohio.
  - hnburnsy 4y ago
    Tornadoes, winter storms, flooding, and power outages. Phoenix get few to little of these.
jpk2f2 4y ago
Water supposedly isn't much of an issue after initial setup due to a high recycle rate. Trucking a shitload of water out initially should be a drop in the bucket as far as costs go.
- genmud 4y ago
  Funny enough, they don't need to truck anything in, since they are right next to a canal, but also have significant water infrastructure that was built to support the site. Also, its in a water district, where we have really done a great job at managing our resources. Check out some of the well data [1], [2], [3] since it is really eye opening what you can do with proper resource management. 1 - https://www.azwater.gov/gwsi/Hydrograph.aspx?SiteID=334244112070301 https://www.azwater.gov/gwsi/Hydrograph.aspx?SiteID=33424411... 2 - https://www.azwater.gov/gwsi/Hydrograph.aspx?SiteID=333844112144501 https://www.azwater.gov/gwsi/Hydrograph.aspx?SiteID=33384411... 3 - https://www.azwater.gov/gwsi/Hydrograph.aspx?SiteID=333756112110201 https://www.azwater.gov/gwsi/Hydrograph.aspx?SiteID=33375611...
lupyro 4y ago
It's a lot of water to get going but almost all of it is re-used after that point
genmud 4y ago
Absolutely. where the TSMC plant is going there are several things that make it perfect for a fab (I'm a little biased, since I drive by it quite frequently): - Phoenix is in located inside a water district, meaning there are many restrictions on water usage and an extremely conservative approach to resource management. Fun fact, many of the wells in our area show increases in water [1] to the aquifer from the lows of the 70's/80's (meaning we are putting more water into the aquifer than we are taking out). Additionally, there is a large artificial lake reservoir and the central arizona project canal runs right by the site. Like others have mentioned, the vast majority of the water gets recycled. - There is an existing high-tech manufacturing base (lots of aerospace, defense and semiconductor infrastructure). - There is great transportation. There is a suitable airport (KDVT) ~5 miles from the new TSMC plant, which can accommodate jets capable of international flights (for example to taiwan) if they need to fly wafers to offsite packaging. Additionally, I10, I17 and I40 are all readily accessible. - There is plenty of space for expansion. The site that TSMC located in has a massive amount of space for expansion, its essentially 5 minutes from town, but has miles of open area that can be utilized for future needs. [1] - https://www.azwater.gov/gwsi/Hydrograph.aspx?SiteID=333844112144501 https://www.azwater.gov/gwsi/Hydrograph.aspx?SiteID=33384411...
hnburnsy 4y ago
Low risk of natural disasters, cheap land, proximity to Taiwan, and existing semiconductor suppliers and workforce. Water is religiously recycled so once the plant is 'full' it doesn't use much ongoing.

by kibwen 4y ago

Can someone tell me if there's actually any geographical sense in putting a fab in Arizona? I admit it seems like the height of madness to put a fab somewhere with so little water.

JumpCrisscross 4y ago

> geographical sense in putting a fab in Arizona Geologically stable and proximate to rail and truck junctures.

bilbo0s 4y ago
and proximate to rail and truck junctures Apparently not if they need to build the rail and highway interchanges. I think what happened is the politicians promised these things to chip manufacturers because they thought the buildout would be a formality. But political reality is taking those promises off the table.
cmrdporcupine 4y ago
Sounds to me like the great lakes region would make more sense then. Same reason it was industrialized 100 years ago in the first place. Excellent shipping routes, access to copious fresh water. And, yeah, geologically stable. They should build a fab in Michigan or Ontario. Labour is cheaper up in Canada, too.
- shagie 4y ago
  The Great Lakes have international restrictions on what the water may be used for and requirements for it to be returned to the watershed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Lakes_Compact https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Lakes_Compact
  - kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
    IC fabs don't export their water.
    - shagie 4y ago
      If they discharge it through a cooling tower, that counts as not returning it to water basin (note that nuclear plants on the lakes don't have cooling towers... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_Beach_Nuclear_Plant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_Beach_Nuclear_Plant - which has other problems, but water diversions aren't one of them).
      - kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
        Yes they do: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davis%E2%80%93Besse_Nuclear_Power_Station https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davis%E2%80%93Besse_Nuclear_Po...
        shagie 4y ago
        Fair 'nuff... that falls under the existing when the compact was signed ( https://www.glslcompactcouncil.org/historical-information/baseline-database/details?id=OH-00598 https://www.glslcompactcouncil.org/historical-information/ba... ). A new diversion of that nature wouldn't be allowed.
- rblatz 4y ago
  Intel is building a fab in Columbus Ohio.
- hnburnsy 4y ago
  Tornadoes, winter storms, flooding, and power outages. Phoenix get few to little of these.

jpk2f2 4y ago

Water supposedly isn't much of an issue after initial setup due to a high recycle rate. Trucking a shitload of water out initially should be a drop in the bucket as far as costs go.

genmud 4y ago
Funny enough, they don't need to truck anything in, since they are right next to a canal, but also have significant water infrastructure that was built to support the site. Also, its in a water district, where we have really done a great job at managing our resources. Check out some of the well data [1], [2], [3] since it is really eye opening what you can do with proper resource management. 1 - https://www.azwater.gov/gwsi/Hydrograph.aspx?SiteID=334244112070301 https://www.azwater.gov/gwsi/Hydrograph.aspx?SiteID=33424411... 2 - https://www.azwater.gov/gwsi/Hydrograph.aspx?SiteID=333844112144501 https://www.azwater.gov/gwsi/Hydrograph.aspx?SiteID=33384411... 3 - https://www.azwater.gov/gwsi/Hydrograph.aspx?SiteID=333756112110201 https://www.azwater.gov/gwsi/Hydrograph.aspx?SiteID=33375611...

lupyro 4y ago

It's a lot of water to get going but almost all of it is re-used after that point

genmud 4y ago

Absolutely. where the TSMC plant is going there are several things that make it perfect for a fab (I'm a little biased, since I drive by it quite frequently): - Phoenix is in located inside a water district, meaning there are many restrictions on water usage and an extremely conservative approach to resource management. Fun fact, many of the wells in our area show increases in water [1] to the aquifer from the lows of the 70's/80's (meaning we are putting more water into the aquifer than we are taking out). Additionally, there is a large artificial lake reservoir and the central arizona project canal runs right by the site. Like others have mentioned, the vast majority of the water gets recycled. - There is an existing high-tech manufacturing base (lots of aerospace, defense and semiconductor infrastructure). - There is great transportation. There is a suitable airport (KDVT) ~5 miles from the new TSMC plant, which can accommodate jets capable of international flights (for example to taiwan) if they need to fly wafers to offsite packaging. Additionally, I10, I17 and I40 are all readily accessible. - There is plenty of space for expansion. The site that TSMC located in has a massive amount of space for expansion, its essentially 5 minutes from town, but has miles of open area that can be utilized for future needs. [1] - https://www.azwater.gov/gwsi/Hydrograph.aspx?SiteID=333844112144501 https://www.azwater.gov/gwsi/Hydrograph.aspx?SiteID=33384411...

hnburnsy 4y ago

Low risk of natural disasters, cheap land, proximity to Taiwan, and existing semiconductor suppliers and workforce. Water is religiously recycled so once the plant is 'full' it doesn't use much ongoing.