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> Without ebikes, only fit bike enthusiasts ride on the roads I've rode bikes for transportation in the US for over a decade now, and I can't agree. My average

> Without ebikes, only fit bike enthusiasts ride on the roads I've rode bikes for transportation in the US for over a decade now, and I can't agree. My average speed is around 12 mph. That's a bit faster than what you say your speed is in another comment. But it's still much slower than typical motorized vehicle speeds. I don't need to keep up with traffic, just make sure that they drive safely around me. > Or if you are going uphill and you are concious you arr holding up all trafic That's not your problem. In most jurisdictions (in the US, at least), the roads are first come, first served. Don't slow people down more than necessary, of course, but don't worry about it if it's unavoidable. I personally avoid these situations by taking longer routes that have less traffic, and not riding when traffic is heavy or waiting if there's a temporary increase in traffic. > If you are going slowly on narrow UK road you get overtaken by double-decker bus with 2 inches of clearence. It's a harrowing experience. If the lane's not wide enough to share, don't share. Taking the lane as appropriate has greatly improved my safety on the road. I usually ride to the right, but I'll take the lane when necessary for my safety and refuse to apologize for it.

ornornor 4y ago
Cycling in North America is terrifying. Many drivers feel like you re not allowed to use the road and will negligently (or actively) try to kill you because they can and because murder by car is frowned upon but very lightly punished if at all. I’m saying this as someone who has ridden a bicycle in traffic almost daily for years in Montreal and Toronto. It takes nerves of steel and that’s very wrong, but it’s the reality. Try taking the lane when at least one asshole a day will make a point to pass you with 10cm clearance when there is one or two spare lanes they could have used. Or threaten physical harm using their car as a weapon just because you dare make them arrive 15 seconds later at the next red light. I live in a much more civilized country now where it isn’t open season on cyclists and don’t miss it one bit.
- btrettel 4y ago
  I fully agree that riding a bike in North America can be terrifying. I was responding to someone who seemed to think that cyclists need to keep up with traffic to improve safety, which I don't agree with. A fast cyclist and someone riding an ebike are still much slower than most motor vehicles. I offered several better solutions for getting respect on the road. > Try taking the lane when at least one asshole a day will make a point to pass you with 10cm clearance when there is one or two spare lanes they could have used. This hasn't been my experience. I regularly take the lane and this seems to have significantly reduced close passes vs. riding far to the right when there isn't enough space. I get passed closely maybe once per week on my current commute, which is over 10 miles long and is mostly suburban.
  - starkparker 4y ago
    > This hasn't been my experience Can you step back and recognize that your experience doesn't matter in discussions like this? That, if anything, it's detrimental when you use it to try to solution-engineer concerns that you don't understand?
    - rootusrootus 4y ago
      Isn't this entire thread about experiences? Anecdotes as far as the eye can see.
- midoridensha 4y ago
  >I live in a much more civilized country now where it isn’t open season on cyclists and don't miss it one bit. Yep, me too. Cycling is commonplace, there's no guns, no toxic Christian-nationalist politics, society is pretty stable, public transit is excellent, people are polite, life is good here. Moving out of America did wonders for my mental health.
joshuahaglund 4y ago
I'm a vehicular cyclist too. "that's not your problem" is technically true but not helpful. Being able to maintain your speed uphill and avoid being overtaken is helpful. "Just take a longer route" Sure I'll take a side street when possible to avoid a main street, but often there's no reasonable alternative to a street with cars going fast. The things you're suggesting for bikes work on ebikes just as well. You're fit, and have the confidence that years of experience brought. "Take the lane" is good advice but you must not be around other vehicles if you don't have cars making close passes. It makes you more visible and most drivers fully change lanes to pass but I still find drivers who won't. They'll take the edge of my lane and pass close. Being able to maintain speed can mean fewer overtakings. It takes a lot of confidence to be a vehicular cyclist. Ebikes boost the rider's power and confidence.
- _dain_ 4y ago
  >"Take the lane" is good advice but you must not be around other vehicles if you don't have cars making close passes. idk where you are but it's illegal for cars to make close (defined as <1.5 metres clearance) passes here. you can get the driver fined severely if you catch them on film doing it. you shouldn't tolerate it just because drivers think they're entitled to do it.
  - joshuahaglund 4y ago
    It's technically illegal here but official enforcement is non-existent. There are civil court options but it's a lot of work. You don't just file a police report. You have to track down the driver's details and have evidence they intended to cause, or actually have caused, physical harm. I've never tried because in most cases it feels like it's not road rage, the driver didn't intend to cause harm, they're just a terrible driver. Legally, it seems a certain amount of harassment is kinda legal :( After close passes, I've caught up to drivers and politely asked them to please change lanes to pass. They're usually confused or embarrassed tho one got mad.
wizofaus 4y ago
> If the lane's not wide enough to share, don't share You're suggesting it's the cyclist in the wrong if they stay close to the road edge, but a wider-than-average vehicle then passes them without leaving a decent gap? The vast majority of drivers do leave enough space and I'm happy to ensure they can pass safely by using no more of the road than is necessary. The sort of drivers that don't are going to be unpleasant/dangerous to share the road with no matter how determinedly you "hold the lane". The worst offenders are cars towing wide trailers/ caravans - they often seem to be entirely unaware of how much road they take up.
- btrettel 4y ago
  No, that is not what I'm suggesting. My point is that if there isn't enough space, some drivers will try to squeeze through. Taking the lane when there isn't enough space to prevent drivers from trying to squeeze through is logical, and it works in my experience. A driver will have to wait behind me or switch lanes, rather than pass me too closely. Anecdotally, I find that when I ride down the center of the lane, drivers are much more likely to completely switch lanes (giving me plenty of space) rather than straddle two lanes (passing me too closely in the process). If there's enough space, I don't take the lane. Also: Cyclists aren't "in the wrong" when drivers pass them dangerously. That's 100% on the drivers. My approach is about encouraging drivers to pass safely, not passing judgement.

ornornor 4y ago

Cycling in North America is terrifying. Many drivers feel like you re not allowed to use the road and will negligently (or actively) try to kill you because they can and because murder by car is frowned upon but very lightly punished if at all. I’m saying this as someone who has ridden a bicycle in traffic almost daily for years in Montreal and Toronto. It takes nerves of steel and that’s very wrong, but it’s the reality. Try taking the lane when at least one asshole a day will make a point to pass you with 10cm clearance when there is one or two spare lanes they could have used. Or threaten physical harm using their car as a weapon just because you dare make them arrive 15 seconds later at the next red light. I live in a much more civilized country now where it isn’t open season on cyclists and don’t miss it one bit.

btrettel 4y ago
I fully agree that riding a bike in North America can be terrifying. I was responding to someone who seemed to think that cyclists need to keep up with traffic to improve safety, which I don't agree with. A fast cyclist and someone riding an ebike are still much slower than most motor vehicles. I offered several better solutions for getting respect on the road. > Try taking the lane when at least one asshole a day will make a point to pass you with 10cm clearance when there is one or two spare lanes they could have used. This hasn't been my experience. I regularly take the lane and this seems to have significantly reduced close passes vs. riding far to the right when there isn't enough space. I get passed closely maybe once per week on my current commute, which is over 10 miles long and is mostly suburban.
- starkparker 4y ago
  > This hasn't been my experience Can you step back and recognize that your experience doesn't matter in discussions like this? That, if anything, it's detrimental when you use it to try to solution-engineer concerns that you don't understand?
  - rootusrootus 4y ago
    Isn't this entire thread about experiences? Anecdotes as far as the eye can see.
midoridensha 4y ago
>I live in a much more civilized country now where it isn’t open season on cyclists and don't miss it one bit. Yep, me too. Cycling is commonplace, there's no guns, no toxic Christian-nationalist politics, society is pretty stable, public transit is excellent, people are polite, life is good here. Moving out of America did wonders for my mental health.

joshuahaglund 4y ago

I'm a vehicular cyclist too. "that's not your problem" is technically true but not helpful. Being able to maintain your speed uphill and avoid being overtaken is helpful. "Just take a longer route" Sure I'll take a side street when possible to avoid a main street, but often there's no reasonable alternative to a street with cars going fast. The things you're suggesting for bikes work on ebikes just as well. You're fit, and have the confidence that years of experience brought. "Take the lane" is good advice but you must not be around other vehicles if you don't have cars making close passes. It makes you more visible and most drivers fully change lanes to pass but I still find drivers who won't. They'll take the edge of my lane and pass close. Being able to maintain speed can mean fewer overtakings. It takes a lot of confidence to be a vehicular cyclist. Ebikes boost the rider's power and confidence.

_dain_ 4y ago
>"Take the lane" is good advice but you must not be around other vehicles if you don't have cars making close passes. idk where you are but it's illegal for cars to make close (defined as <1.5 metres clearance) passes here. you can get the driver fined severely if you catch them on film doing it. you shouldn't tolerate it just because drivers think they're entitled to do it.
- joshuahaglund 4y ago
  It's technically illegal here but official enforcement is non-existent. There are civil court options but it's a lot of work. You don't just file a police report. You have to track down the driver's details and have evidence they intended to cause, or actually have caused, physical harm. I've never tried because in most cases it feels like it's not road rage, the driver didn't intend to cause harm, they're just a terrible driver. Legally, it seems a certain amount of harassment is kinda legal :( After close passes, I've caught up to drivers and politely asked them to please change lanes to pass. They're usually confused or embarrassed tho one got mad.

wizofaus 4y ago

> If the lane's not wide enough to share, don't share You're suggesting it's the cyclist in the wrong if they stay close to the road edge, but a wider-than-average vehicle then passes them without leaving a decent gap? The vast majority of drivers do leave enough space and I'm happy to ensure they can pass safely by using no more of the road than is necessary. The sort of drivers that don't are going to be unpleasant/dangerous to share the road with no matter how determinedly you "hold the lane". The worst offenders are cars towing wide trailers/ caravans - they often seem to be entirely unaware of how much road they take up.

btrettel 4y ago
No, that is not what I'm suggesting. My point is that if there isn't enough space, some drivers will try to squeeze through. Taking the lane when there isn't enough space to prevent drivers from trying to squeeze through is logical, and it works in my experience. A driver will have to wait behind me or switch lanes, rather than pass me too closely. Anecdotally, I find that when I ride down the center of the lane, drivers are much more likely to completely switch lanes (giving me plenty of space) rather than straddle two lanes (passing me too closely in the process). If there's enough space, I don't take the lane. Also: Cyclists aren't "in the wrong" when drivers pass them dangerously. That's 100% on the drivers. My approach is about encouraging drivers to pass safely, not passing judgement.