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> Wouldn't it be smarter to actually listen to what Russia is trying to say? Russia says a lot of things, often contradictory, but what really speaks is their

> Wouldn't it be smarter to actually listen to what Russia is trying to say? Russia says a lot of things, often contradictory, but what really speaks is their actions. Invading Ukraine wasn’t about denazification, or nato threat, or anything except naked imperialism.

andreygrehov 4y ago
[flagged]
- pavlov 4y ago
  “Denazification and demilitarization” is a hell of a euphemism for a nationalist military invasion of a neighboring country. When Hitler invaded Poland, at least he didn’t claim he was actually fighting fascists and stopping Polish militarization. Today’s propaganda operates on levels of post-truth that Goebbels couldn’t have imagined.
- cbeach 4y ago
  Let's be honest, the Azov Brigade should be condemned. But have they killed as many innocent civilians as the Russians over the last couple of years? In a morally consistent world, both the Azovs and aggressive Russian regime should be countered, without any need for loss of innocent life. No one should use the existence of Azovs as an excuse to invade a country and murder innocent people.
- watwut 4y ago
  I would be somewhat willing to believe is Russia got rid of own Neonazi first. Which is not what happening, Russia has quite strong movement. It is also quite racist country, socially-culturally very much like nazi were - having a thing against gays, celebrating violence, all of that.
  - andreygrehov 4y ago
    Same as in Ukraine. I'm Ukrainian and I lived there for 27 years. There are very little Ukrainians who don't have Russian relatives, because they all had sex between each other when USSR was still a thing. Many Ukrainians have one of their parents born in Russia. The culture in both countries is, more or less, the same.
    - watwut 4y ago
      By pretty much all statics and reports I have seen, Ukrainian neo-nazi problem if massively smaller then Russian one. Every single country has some neonazi ... and Russia has a lot of them and in fairly powerful positions. Ukraine is not celebrating Stalin the way Russia is celebrating Stalin. Ukraine was not forcibly closing organizations studying communists crimes or Stalin crimes, Russia did. Ukraine did not moved to make gay or trans materials illegal. Meanwhile, arrests and violence against gays in Russia became quite a serious thing in Russia. Practically, being gay is criminalized. Ukraine did not started wars with countries around it the way Russia repeatedly did. ------------------ I am not saying Ukraine is country of saints, but Russia is waay worst then that.
      - andreygrehov 4y ago
        I will just say that when I lived in Ukraine, one of the "entertainments" for teens was to go find a group of gay people and get into a fight with them. Why? Just for fun. Russia has conservative values and their government works towards the propaganda of LGBT. They do not criminalize anyone for being a gay person. In fact, the same bill was proposed in Ukraine in 2011-12. While the bill did not pass, there are obvious cultural strings.
- KptMarchewa 4y ago
  >Denazification Why does russia openly support Alexey Milchakov and it's openly nazi Rusich organization then? Maybe because it's a non point and invented reason? Putin loves nazis that support him.
- haconBagrid 4y ago
  Russia has a different definition of Nazi. To Russia, everyone who opposes them is a Nazi.
- danny_taco 4y ago
  Call it what you will, but what Russia is doing is trying to dissolve the Ukrainian identity through genocide and terrorism. I'm looking forward to the day when Ukraine gains back its stolen territories and pushes back Russia to their borders.
jabl 4y ago
> Invading Ukraine wasn’t about denazification, or nato threat, or anything except naked imperialism. I agree. An additional reason AFAICS is that a slavic country, similar to Russia in many ways, making moves towards becoming a liberal democracy was seen as a threat to the domestic power of Putin and his inner circle. The Maidan revolution spreading to Moscow is surely a nightmare scenario for Putin.
- b112 4y ago
  The Maidan revolution spreading to Moscow is surely a nightmare scenario for Putin. I doubt that, unless Putin is completely delusional. The guy has, at best, almost no time left before he either dies, due to age, or dies, due to age/decline + the perception of weakness, and therefore assassination. If Putin is still running Russia in 6 months I'll be surprised, and if in 2 years, astonished. I guess maybe he was concerned a decade ago, but he's all short term thought now. It's likely why the whole Ukraine thing seems a bit nutty, but if you know you have a very short time, and you think you're the only guy to do something, caution to the wind! IMO, this is what makes Putin dangerous. He knows he is checking out.
nemo44x 4y ago
There has been a civil war of Ukraine and Pro-Russia separatists in the East for 10 years now. It's not a black and white thing and although I think Russia's approach the last year has been despicable (invading and destroying lives and property in areas where there isn't a dispute between people), it isn't like it was all peace and love in the eastern areas of Ukraine. I think it's important to bring nuance to these things and not just use a lazy label like "imperialism" to describe what's going on, even if imperialism maybe does play a part too. Even dismissing the Nazi stuff - yes Russia has overblown it, but there were literal pro-Nazi military units of Ukraine fighting in that civil war that terrorized pro-Russian citizens.

andreygrehov 4y ago

[flagged]

pavlov 4y ago
“Denazification and demilitarization” is a hell of a euphemism for a nationalist military invasion of a neighboring country. When Hitler invaded Poland, at least he didn’t claim he was actually fighting fascists and stopping Polish militarization. Today’s propaganda operates on levels of post-truth that Goebbels couldn’t have imagined.
cbeach 4y ago
Let's be honest, the Azov Brigade should be condemned. But have they killed as many innocent civilians as the Russians over the last couple of years? In a morally consistent world, both the Azovs and aggressive Russian regime should be countered, without any need for loss of innocent life. No one should use the existence of Azovs as an excuse to invade a country and murder innocent people.
watwut 4y ago
I would be somewhat willing to believe is Russia got rid of own Neonazi first. Which is not what happening, Russia has quite strong movement. It is also quite racist country, socially-culturally very much like nazi were - having a thing against gays, celebrating violence, all of that.
- andreygrehov 4y ago
  Same as in Ukraine. I'm Ukrainian and I lived there for 27 years. There are very little Ukrainians who don't have Russian relatives, because they all had sex between each other when USSR was still a thing. Many Ukrainians have one of their parents born in Russia. The culture in both countries is, more or less, the same.
  - watwut 4y ago
    By pretty much all statics and reports I have seen, Ukrainian neo-nazi problem if massively smaller then Russian one. Every single country has some neonazi ... and Russia has a lot of them and in fairly powerful positions. Ukraine is not celebrating Stalin the way Russia is celebrating Stalin. Ukraine was not forcibly closing organizations studying communists crimes or Stalin crimes, Russia did. Ukraine did not moved to make gay or trans materials illegal. Meanwhile, arrests and violence against gays in Russia became quite a serious thing in Russia. Practically, being gay is criminalized. Ukraine did not started wars with countries around it the way Russia repeatedly did. ------------------ I am not saying Ukraine is country of saints, but Russia is waay worst then that.
    - andreygrehov 4y ago
      I will just say that when I lived in Ukraine, one of the "entertainments" for teens was to go find a group of gay people and get into a fight with them. Why? Just for fun. Russia has conservative values and their government works towards the propaganda of LGBT. They do not criminalize anyone for being a gay person. In fact, the same bill was proposed in Ukraine in 2011-12. While the bill did not pass, there are obvious cultural strings.
KptMarchewa 4y ago
>Denazification Why does russia openly support Alexey Milchakov and it's openly nazi Rusich organization then? Maybe because it's a non point and invented reason? Putin loves nazis that support him.
haconBagrid 4y ago
Russia has a different definition of Nazi. To Russia, everyone who opposes them is a Nazi.
danny_taco 4y ago
Call it what you will, but what Russia is doing is trying to dissolve the Ukrainian identity through genocide and terrorism. I'm looking forward to the day when Ukraine gains back its stolen territories and pushes back Russia to their borders.

jabl 4y ago

> Invading Ukraine wasn’t about denazification, or nato threat, or anything except naked imperialism. I agree. An additional reason AFAICS is that a slavic country, similar to Russia in many ways, making moves towards becoming a liberal democracy was seen as a threat to the domestic power of Putin and his inner circle. The Maidan revolution spreading to Moscow is surely a nightmare scenario for Putin.

b112 4y ago
The Maidan revolution spreading to Moscow is surely a nightmare scenario for Putin. I doubt that, unless Putin is completely delusional. The guy has, at best, almost no time left before he either dies, due to age, or dies, due to age/decline + the perception of weakness, and therefore assassination. If Putin is still running Russia in 6 months I'll be surprised, and if in 2 years, astonished. I guess maybe he was concerned a decade ago, but he's all short term thought now. It's likely why the whole Ukraine thing seems a bit nutty, but if you know you have a very short time, and you think you're the only guy to do something, caution to the wind! IMO, this is what makes Putin dangerous. He knows he is checking out.

nemo44x 4y ago

There has been a civil war of Ukraine and Pro-Russia separatists in the East for 10 years now. It's not a black and white thing and although I think Russia's approach the last year has been despicable (invading and destroying lives and property in areas where there isn't a dispute between people), it isn't like it was all peace and love in the eastern areas of Ukraine. I think it's important to bring nuance to these things and not just use a lazy label like "imperialism" to describe what's going on, even if imperialism maybe does play a part too. Even dismissing the Nazi stuff - yes Russia has overblown it, but there were literal pro-Nazi military units of Ukraine fighting in that civil war that terrorized pro-Russian citizens.