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> Wouldn't it be smarter to actually listen to what Russia is trying to say? No. Nobody should care what Russia has to say about another country voluntarily wa

> Wouldn't it be smarter to actually listen to what Russia is trying to say? No. Nobody should care what Russia has to say about another country voluntarily wanting to (and joining) NATO > the irony is that the expansion of NATO gives the US ability to force its will upon NATO members and its neighbors All NATO members joined voluntarily. None of your business. > the ambitions are not different from the ambitions of Russia. I won’t even attempt to refute this.

andreygrehov 4y ago
> No. Nobody should care what Russia has to say about another country voluntarily wanting to (and joining) NATO I'm sorry, but Russia's concern is not out of thin air - you can only join NATO if your membership is not a threat to your border countries. This is one of the rules of NATO itself.
- sgjohnson 4y ago
  > This is one of the rules of NATO itself. It would be odd to have such a rule, because NATO is a defensive alliance that is of no threat to any of the bordering countries. Russia’s concern is out of the thin air, because if NATO really wanted it to, with how incompetent the russian army is, I estimate it’s 3 days to take Moscow. The only people afraid of the Russian army are Russian men of military age.
  - andreygrehov 4y ago
    > It would be odd to have such a rule I mean, read their rules.
    - sgjohnson 4y ago
      You made the claim, the burden of proof is on you.
    - SllX 4y ago
      Why don’t you read them? https://1997-2001.state.gov/regions/eur/fs_members.html https://1997-2001.state.gov/regions/eur/fs_members.html Those are the minimum requirements for new members, everything else is negotiated in the accession process.
- khochesh_kushat 4y ago
  Russia's concern is they will not be able to invade former Soviet countries if they join NATO, which gets in the way of their imperial ambitions. NATO is not going to invade Russia.
- kklimonda 4y ago
  Given that NATO is a defensive alliance, I don't see how such a rule would make much sense. Can you spell that rule out, and link to the official document?
  - andreygrehov 4y ago
    Yes, I will try to find it.
    - sgjohnson 4y ago
      Any luck in finding the source?
      - andreygrehov 4y ago
        Yes. NATO members states, as members of the OSCE, are expected to adhere to the OSCE's Code of Conduct on Politico-Military Aspects of Security. The 3rd aspect of the document says, quote: 3. They remain convinced that security is indivisible and that the security of each of them is inseparably linked to the security of all others. *They will not strengthen their security at the expense of the security of other States. They will pursue their own security interests in conformity with the common effort to strengthen security and stability in the CSCE area and beyond.* Here is the official document: https://www.osce.org/files/f/documents/5/7/41355.pdf https://www.osce.org/files/f/documents/5/7/41355.pdf
        sgjohnson 4y ago
        OSCE has got nothing to do with NATO whatsoever. FYI, Russia is also a member of OSCE. At this point I'm convinced you're either trolling or so high on Kremlin's propaganda that you're beyond saving.
        andreygrehov 4y ago
        My god... All the EU states and all NATO states also participate in the OSCE. Is there no world in your head where someone other than Russia does something wrong? I live in the US for 10+ years and give zero shits about Russian / US / Ukrainian propaganda. There are rules and I'm not seeing "good" (according to conventional wisdom) countries following these rules. But who cares, right? The United States is like the biggest, most powerful country in the whole world, hands down. And if you think we're living in a unipolar kind of world, what you're saying is that we're the only major player on the global stage. And what that means? With all that crazy amount of power we've got, we can pretty much go out and do all sorts of wild and reckless stuff, and the crazy part is, it doesn't come back to bite us in any. major. way. There is an argument going around saying that the way Putin's been acting kinda shows that it was a smart move to try and get NATO to grow eastward and bring in countries like Ukraine and Georgia. But, what's really interesting is that before the Ukrainian crisis happened, the US didn't have any reason to believe that Putin was acting all aggressive. And there's nothing showing that the US was considering making NATO bigger just to keep the Russians in check. We just didn't see Russia as being all pushy and aggressive. But then, when the Ukrainian crisis kicked off on February 22 2014, that's when the US changed its mind. That's when the US decided, "Hey, Russia is being aggressive". And the US started thinking Russia wanted to make itself bigger, like a "greater Russia" or something. This change in perception occurred post facto.
- joseph_grobbles 4y ago
  "you can only join NATO if your membership is not a threat to your border countries" This is, of course, complete nonsense. It is as much a fact as the oft-cited claim that NATO promised not to expand (another lie that is true only to rubes). NATO has a requirement that you settle any ongoing border disputes before ascension: If you have a simmering feud with a neighbor country about who owns a pile of rocks, it's such an obvious flashpoint that you need to resolve it first. It has zero requirement that you don't threaten the tyrannical empire building pursuits of the neighboring madman. Russians defending Russian aggression is something that I find just impossible to believe. Putin has sent tens of thousands of Russians into a meat grinder for a futile, ego-driven war that has zero outcome that isn't negative for Russia for decades to come. And he's going to keep grinding those bodies into corpses and you'll keep talking about deNazification or whatever nonsense you're fed.
  - andreygrehov 4y ago
    > This is, of course, complete nonsense. This is not a complete nonsense simply from the fact that if a joining country has conflicts with a bordering country, then such a member would trigger the "attack on one shall be considered an attack on all". > Putin has sent tens of thousands of Russians into a meat grinder, ego-driven war that has zero outcome that isn't negative for Russia for decades to come. I agree that this war is stupid, but it could've been avoid entirely had the US conducted a constructive dialog with Russia. Ukraine is grinding Ukrainian males the same way Russia is grinding theirs. People with cash has already bribed to leave the country. Those who haven't bribed yet get caught on the streets and sent to the war the very next week. Military folks don't care whether you are a software engineer who has never held a weapon in your hands or a 58 old guy who's about to retire. Whatever is happening today is the result of something. That something has been brewing for years. The root of that something are the ambitions of NATO. Some countries simply do not want NATO to be around. And I don't get why it's so hard to understand that. Edit: I'm a software engineer who has never fired a firearm. Had I been in Ukraine right now, they'd sent me to the war as well, because they mailed my parents all the papers. Luckily I left the country many, many years ago.
    - 4y ago

andreygrehov 4y ago

> No. Nobody should care what Russia has to say about another country voluntarily wanting to (and joining) NATO I'm sorry, but Russia's concern is not out of thin air - you can only join NATO if your membership is not a threat to your border countries. This is one of the rules of NATO itself.

sgjohnson 4y ago
> This is one of the rules of NATO itself. It would be odd to have such a rule, because NATO is a defensive alliance that is of no threat to any of the bordering countries. Russia’s concern is out of the thin air, because if NATO really wanted it to, with how incompetent the russian army is, I estimate it’s 3 days to take Moscow. The only people afraid of the Russian army are Russian men of military age.
- andreygrehov 4y ago
  > It would be odd to have such a rule I mean, read their rules.
  - sgjohnson 4y ago
    You made the claim, the burden of proof is on you.
  - SllX 4y ago
    Why don’t you read them? https://1997-2001.state.gov/regions/eur/fs_members.html https://1997-2001.state.gov/regions/eur/fs_members.html Those are the minimum requirements for new members, everything else is negotiated in the accession process.
khochesh_kushat 4y ago
Russia's concern is they will not be able to invade former Soviet countries if they join NATO, which gets in the way of their imperial ambitions. NATO is not going to invade Russia.
kklimonda 4y ago
Given that NATO is a defensive alliance, I don't see how such a rule would make much sense. Can you spell that rule out, and link to the official document?
- andreygrehov 4y ago
  Yes, I will try to find it.
  - sgjohnson 4y ago
    Any luck in finding the source?
    - andreygrehov 4y ago
      Yes. NATO members states, as members of the OSCE, are expected to adhere to the OSCE's Code of Conduct on Politico-Military Aspects of Security. The 3rd aspect of the document says, quote: 3. They remain convinced that security is indivisible and that the security of each of them is inseparably linked to the security of all others. *They will not strengthen their security at the expense of the security of other States. They will pursue their own security interests in conformity with the common effort to strengthen security and stability in the CSCE area and beyond.* Here is the official document: https://www.osce.org/files/f/documents/5/7/41355.pdf https://www.osce.org/files/f/documents/5/7/41355.pdf
      - sgjohnson 4y ago
        OSCE has got nothing to do with NATO whatsoever. FYI, Russia is also a member of OSCE. At this point I'm convinced you're either trolling or so high on Kremlin's propaganda that you're beyond saving.
        andreygrehov 4y ago
        My god... All the EU states and all NATO states also participate in the OSCE. Is there no world in your head where someone other than Russia does something wrong? I live in the US for 10+ years and give zero shits about Russian / US / Ukrainian propaganda. There are rules and I'm not seeing "good" (according to conventional wisdom) countries following these rules. But who cares, right? The United States is like the biggest, most powerful country in the whole world, hands down. And if you think we're living in a unipolar kind of world, what you're saying is that we're the only major player on the global stage. And what that means? With all that crazy amount of power we've got, we can pretty much go out and do all sorts of wild and reckless stuff, and the crazy part is, it doesn't come back to bite us in any. major. way. There is an argument going around saying that the way Putin's been acting kinda shows that it was a smart move to try and get NATO to grow eastward and bring in countries like Ukraine and Georgia. But, what's really interesting is that before the Ukrainian crisis happened, the US didn't have any reason to believe that Putin was acting all aggressive. And there's nothing showing that the US was considering making NATO bigger just to keep the Russians in check. We just didn't see Russia as being all pushy and aggressive. But then, when the Ukrainian crisis kicked off on February 22 2014, that's when the US changed its mind. That's when the US decided, "Hey, Russia is being aggressive". And the US started thinking Russia wanted to make itself bigger, like a "greater Russia" or something. This change in perception occurred post facto.
joseph_grobbles 4y ago
"you can only join NATO if your membership is not a threat to your border countries" This is, of course, complete nonsense. It is as much a fact as the oft-cited claim that NATO promised not to expand (another lie that is true only to rubes). NATO has a requirement that you settle any ongoing border disputes before ascension: If you have a simmering feud with a neighbor country about who owns a pile of rocks, it's such an obvious flashpoint that you need to resolve it first. It has zero requirement that you don't threaten the tyrannical empire building pursuits of the neighboring madman. Russians defending Russian aggression is something that I find just impossible to believe. Putin has sent tens of thousands of Russians into a meat grinder for a futile, ego-driven war that has zero outcome that isn't negative for Russia for decades to come. And he's going to keep grinding those bodies into corpses and you'll keep talking about deNazification or whatever nonsense you're fed.
- andreygrehov 4y ago
  > This is, of course, complete nonsense. This is not a complete nonsense simply from the fact that if a joining country has conflicts with a bordering country, then such a member would trigger the "attack on one shall be considered an attack on all". > Putin has sent tens of thousands of Russians into a meat grinder, ego-driven war that has zero outcome that isn't negative for Russia for decades to come. I agree that this war is stupid, but it could've been avoid entirely had the US conducted a constructive dialog with Russia. Ukraine is grinding Ukrainian males the same way Russia is grinding theirs. People with cash has already bribed to leave the country. Those who haven't bribed yet get caught on the streets and sent to the war the very next week. Military folks don't care whether you are a software engineer who has never held a weapon in your hands or a 58 old guy who's about to retire. Whatever is happening today is the result of something. That something has been brewing for years. The root of that something are the ambitions of NATO. Some countries simply do not want NATO to be around. And I don't get why it's so hard to understand that. Edit: I'm a software engineer who has never fired a firearm. Had I been in Ukraine right now, they'd sent me to the war as well, because they mailed my parents all the papers. Luckily I left the country many, many years ago.
  - 4y ago