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I think there's a limit to freedom as a compass, especially if we emphasise social limitations. At some point you're not after freedom. You're after change to s

I think there's a limit to freedom as a compass, especially if we emphasise social limitations. At some point you're not after freedom. You're after change to social norms, not people's right to break them. Depending on the specific beach/society/group bikinis can be either normative or anti-normative. IE, a woman can, and likely will feel pressured to conform. A 1950s bathing gown or a modern burkini is often as unacceptable at a bikini beach as a skimpy bikini is in religious/conservative spaces. A woman who leaves her seat in a cafe to breastfeed in the baby change stall or toilet can be ashamed in company that considers public breastfeeding a basic norm. I'm all for broad and free. We're not great at this, and should be better. But, I also think there are always norms and "culture wars" are about the norms. Not just the freedom to violate norms. What the norms are, because norms will continue to exist.

AlecSchueler 4y ago
Isn't part of exercising our freedom to change them having open conversations about how they do and don't serve us, calling attention to how certain norms have become entrenched and quietioning that etc.?
- dalbasal 4y ago
  Idk. Freedom is a big word and can mean different things to different people. To me, in this context, I think it means openness/breadth of what is normative and also the ability to nonconform. That's also why I said it's limited. Take transgenderism today, gay rights a generation ago. Freedom is/was just one step. It isn't enough that we stopped putting people (like Alan Turing or Oscar Wilde) in jail for sodomy. We also want/ed norms to change. We want people to consider homosexuality acceptable and wholesome. That is a change to norms, not the freedom to ignore norms. So... I'd say freedom and openness lend to cultural and normative changes... but these are still two separate things. Perhaps it's easier to see things in the opposite direction. Conservatives and (especially) reactionaries will often invoke their freedom to shun homosexuality or even to practice racism or something. Our reaction to that is what it is because norms are at stake. Societal norms, not just individual sentiments.

AlecSchueler 4y ago

Isn't part of exercising our freedom to change them having open conversations about how they do and don't serve us, calling attention to how certain norms have become entrenched and quietioning that etc.?

dalbasal 4y ago
Idk. Freedom is a big word and can mean different things to different people. To me, in this context, I think it means openness/breadth of what is normative and also the ability to nonconform. That's also why I said it's limited. Take transgenderism today, gay rights a generation ago. Freedom is/was just one step. It isn't enough that we stopped putting people (like Alan Turing or Oscar Wilde) in jail for sodomy. We also want/ed norms to change. We want people to consider homosexuality acceptable and wholesome. That is a change to norms, not the freedom to ignore norms. So... I'd say freedom and openness lend to cultural and normative changes... but these are still two separate things. Perhaps it's easier to see things in the opposite direction. Conservatives and (especially) reactionaries will often invoke their freedom to shun homosexuality or even to practice racism or something. Our reaction to that is what it is because norms are at stake. Societal norms, not just individual sentiments.