4 ms·

88 degrees makes sense… you boil water to make coffee… Also you can feel via the cup how hot.

throw0101a 4y ago
> According to Dr. Fredericka Brown and Dr. Kenneth Diller, mechanical engineering professors at The University of Texas at Tyler, the optimal temperature range for serving hot beverages is between 125°F and 136°F. Their research shows that although there are varying preferences regarding the optimal temperature for beverage consumption, drinking a hot beverage outside of this range can negatively impact taste and cause physical discomfort. In some cases, drinking beverages that are above this temperature range can lead to serious burns to the mouth, tongue, and esophagus. * https://blog.nycm.com/2020/01/protecting-your-palate-what-is-best.html https://blog.nycm.com/2020/01/protecting-your-palate-what-is... > Hot beverages such as tea, hot chocolate, and coffee are frequently served at temperatures between 160 degrees F (71.1 degrees C) and 185 degrees F (85 degrees C). Brief exposures to liquids in this temperature range can cause significant scald burns. However, hot beverages must be served at a temperature that is high enough to provide a satisfactory sensation to the consumer. This paper presents an analysis to quantify hot beverage temperatures that balance limiting the potential scald burn hazard and maintaining an acceptable perception of adequate product warmth. * https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18226454/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18226454/
- onethought 4y ago
  So are you saying no one boils water to make coffee?
  - throw0101a 4y ago
    Strictly speaking, one shouldn't boil (100°C) water to make coffee†. The SCA recommends a water temperatures of 200°F ± 5° (93.0°C ± 3°): * https://sca.coffee/research/protocols-best-practices https://sca.coffee/research/protocols-best-practices Of course the temperature you make coffee at, and the temperature you serve coffee at, and the temperature you drink coffee at, may not all be the same. One should also keep in mind the serving container: some retain heat more than others, and so the temperature drop gradient may be different and should probably be considered as well. † Making (black) tea is something else.
  - viridian 4y ago
    You shouldn't use boiling water to make coffee unless you want it to be bitter. General rule is you want 195-205F water, so you boil, wait 30 seconds, bloom the coffee, wait another 30 seconds, make the coffee. Finished coffee is around around 185-188F when I use a french press or pourover, I assume the air, container, and the grounds all absorb some of the heat. After about 5 minutes its a very drinkable ~160.
    - onethought 4y ago
      Weird how every espresso machine in existence has a boiler in it huh. Someone should tell the manufacturers they are doing it wrong.
      - viridian 4y ago
        Show me a high quality espresso machine that at the time of extraction has boiling water contacting the portafilter. I'll save you the trouble, because no such machine exists.
        onethought 4y ago
        My point was it’s very obvious that boiling water is part of making coffee I’m shocked at the willed ignorance so that we can all pretend McDonalds was negligent. But it’s mental gymnastics. I’m not sure why. I assume some anti-corporate/big company sentiment.
        viridian 4y ago
        I don't think it's mental gymnastics. The key fact of what I'm trying to argue here, and the lawsuit against mcdonald's, is that at the time, McDonald's was keeping the resting temperature of the coffee far too hot. Not only far hotter than any other location in the same town that sold coffee, but also, as I'm trying to demonstrate, hotter than coffee produced in a normal pour-over process. It's unreasonable for customers to assume that McDonald's coffee is significantly hotter than every other coffee on the market, and also hotter than fresh coffee they make themselves at home. I don't really have strong opinions on the "McDonald's kept the coffee near boiling so that people wouldn't request refills in store" bit, since it doesn't make a whole lot of sense as black coffee is dirt cheap and making it hotter only encourages people to consume more cream, which is expensive. Reasoning aside though, it's pretty obvious why McDonald's was found liable.
kevviiinn 4y ago
Coffee usually isn't kept near boiling after being made. That actually causes some chemical reactions in the coffee to speed up and makes it more bitter quickly
thebooktocome 4y ago
As cousin comment points out, these were the days of styrofoam cups. They are far more efficient heat insulators than today’s standard paper cups. Typically people do not drink coffee at boiling temperature, for the reason that it would burn their mouths and tongues if they did. Perhaps instead of blaming the victim, you might try to sympathize. Third degree burns to the genitals would be life-destroying.
- saiya-jin 4y ago
  Well these are well known facts to any kid who is beyond first experience with styrofoam cups, heck apart from appalling chemistry being leaked into drink, I do actually prefer cups that keep temperature longer when ordering drinks. That's the whole purpose if styrofoam here. Heck, there is whole business around thermal mugs for exactly this purpose. Same would be valid for standard tea - you start with cca 100C and its actually how it should be. If you don't like it hot, order something else or go someplace else. If we would be talking about case of little kid not knowing this type of cup burning themselves, even way less than she did, then that's a completely different story. Or was she also somehow mentally impaired to not understand hot=bad in groin? But as facts are presented, people do themselves harm with stuff that is well known and expected to cause harm. If I let chainsaw in my lap and accidentally start it somehow via normal way it should be started, well that would be also life-changing injury, and result of my utter stupidity and nothing else. I do get I could sue the company making it, and if in US I can actually win but that's ridiculous. Sorry, as much as I hate corporations including McDonald for many, many of their transgressions, this one is properly ridiculous even with all the facts stated and all the time passed. There is no end to people getting themselves injured or killed every single effin' day, even right now, doing stupid things with dangerous stuff. Some internet sites are just endless daily streams of records of that, and its pretty damn crazy. So instead of lesson being 'be careful with dangerous stuff, the dangerous part is serious', we bend reality backwards so hot coffee is not hot, just warm, because somebody will put it in their laps, or throw it on another person, or will pour it over their face. Instead of saying ie - McDonald, please present 2 types of cups, one for people like me, call it 'hot that lasts' and charge extra 20c for it as an added value, and another 'warm coffee that won't burn ya even if you shower in it'. I really don't see actual moral lesson for McDonald in this case. A little bit of personal responsibility expected from citizens would be much, much better lesson for society as a whole.

> According to Dr. Fredericka Brown and Dr. Kenneth Diller, mechanical engineering professors at The University of Texas at Tyler, the optimal temperature range for serving hot beverages is between 125°F and 136°F. Their research shows that although there are varying preferences regarding the optimal temperature for beverage consumption, drinking a hot beverage outside of this range can negatively impact taste and cause physical discomfort. In some cases, drinking beverages that are above this temperature range can lead to serious burns to the mouth, tongue, and esophagus. * https://blog.nycm.com/2020/01/protecting-your-palate-what-is-best.html https://blog.nycm.com/2020/01/protecting-your-palate-what-is... > Hot beverages such as tea, hot chocolate, and coffee are frequently served at temperatures between 160 degrees F (71.1 degrees C) and 185 degrees F (85 degrees C). Brief exposures to liquids in this temperature range can cause significant scald burns. However, hot beverages must be served at a temperature that is high enough to provide a satisfactory sensation to the consumer. This paper presents an analysis to quantify hot beverage temperatures that balance limiting the potential scald burn hazard and maintaining an acceptable perception of adequate product warmth. * https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18226454/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18226454/

onethought 4y ago
So are you saying no one boils water to make coffee?
- throw0101a 4y ago
  Strictly speaking, one shouldn't boil (100°C) water to make coffee†. The SCA recommends a water temperatures of 200°F ± 5° (93.0°C ± 3°): * https://sca.coffee/research/protocols-best-practices https://sca.coffee/research/protocols-best-practices Of course the temperature you make coffee at, and the temperature you serve coffee at, and the temperature you drink coffee at, may not all be the same. One should also keep in mind the serving container: some retain heat more than others, and so the temperature drop gradient may be different and should probably be considered as well. † Making (black) tea is something else.
- viridian 4y ago
  You shouldn't use boiling water to make coffee unless you want it to be bitter. General rule is you want 195-205F water, so you boil, wait 30 seconds, bloom the coffee, wait another 30 seconds, make the coffee. Finished coffee is around around 185-188F when I use a french press or pourover, I assume the air, container, and the grounds all absorb some of the heat. After about 5 minutes its a very drinkable ~160.
  - onethought 4y ago
    Weird how every espresso machine in existence has a boiler in it huh. Someone should tell the manufacturers they are doing it wrong.
    - viridian 4y ago
      Show me a high quality espresso machine that at the time of extraction has boiling water contacting the portafilter. I'll save you the trouble, because no such machine exists.
      - onethought 4y ago
        My point was it’s very obvious that boiling water is part of making coffee I’m shocked at the willed ignorance so that we can all pretend McDonalds was negligent. But it’s mental gymnastics. I’m not sure why. I assume some anti-corporate/big company sentiment.
        viridian 4y ago
        I don't think it's mental gymnastics. The key fact of what I'm trying to argue here, and the lawsuit against mcdonald's, is that at the time, McDonald's was keeping the resting temperature of the coffee far too hot. Not only far hotter than any other location in the same town that sold coffee, but also, as I'm trying to demonstrate, hotter than coffee produced in a normal pour-over process. It's unreasonable for customers to assume that McDonald's coffee is significantly hotter than every other coffee on the market, and also hotter than fresh coffee they make themselves at home. I don't really have strong opinions on the "McDonald's kept the coffee near boiling so that people wouldn't request refills in store" bit, since it doesn't make a whole lot of sense as black coffee is dirt cheap and making it hotter only encourages people to consume more cream, which is expensive. Reasoning aside though, it's pretty obvious why McDonald's was found liable.

kevviiinn 4y ago

Coffee usually isn't kept near boiling after being made. That actually causes some chemical reactions in the coffee to speed up and makes it more bitter quickly

thebooktocome 4y ago

As cousin comment points out, these were the days of styrofoam cups. They are far more efficient heat insulators than today’s standard paper cups. Typically people do not drink coffee at boiling temperature, for the reason that it would burn their mouths and tongues if they did. Perhaps instead of blaming the victim, you might try to sympathize. Third degree burns to the genitals would be life-destroying.

saiya-jin 4y ago
Well these are well known facts to any kid who is beyond first experience with styrofoam cups, heck apart from appalling chemistry being leaked into drink, I do actually prefer cups that keep temperature longer when ordering drinks. That's the whole purpose if styrofoam here. Heck, there is whole business around thermal mugs for exactly this purpose. Same would be valid for standard tea - you start with cca 100C and its actually how it should be. If you don't like it hot, order something else or go someplace else. If we would be talking about case of little kid not knowing this type of cup burning themselves, even way less than she did, then that's a completely different story. Or was she also somehow mentally impaired to not understand hot=bad in groin? But as facts are presented, people do themselves harm with stuff that is well known and expected to cause harm. If I let chainsaw in my lap and accidentally start it somehow via normal way it should be started, well that would be also life-changing injury, and result of my utter stupidity and nothing else. I do get I could sue the company making it, and if in US I can actually win but that's ridiculous. Sorry, as much as I hate corporations including McDonald for many, many of their transgressions, this one is properly ridiculous even with all the facts stated and all the time passed. There is no end to people getting themselves injured or killed every single effin' day, even right now, doing stupid things with dangerous stuff. Some internet sites are just endless daily streams of records of that, and its pretty damn crazy. So instead of lesson being 'be careful with dangerous stuff, the dangerous part is serious', we bend reality backwards so hot coffee is not hot, just warm, because somebody will put it in their laps, or throw it on another person, or will pour it over their face. Instead of saying ie - McDonald, please present 2 types of cups, one for people like me, call it 'hot that lasts' and charge extra 20c for it as an added value, and another 'warm coffee that won't burn ya even if you shower in it'. I really don't see actual moral lesson for McDonald in this case. A little bit of personal responsibility expected from citizens would be much, much better lesson for society as a whole.