8 ms·

What we really need is ebike standards for the components. You should be able to use motors, batteries and contollers from any brand interchangeably on your bik

What we really need is ebike standards for the components. You should be able to use motors, batteries and contollers from any brand interchangeably on your bike. It is atrocious that you buy a bike worth an decent used car and you cant't expect the electric motor last more than a few thousand kilometers [1], after which you have a broken black box of an motor in you hands that you need to replace, not fix. Which, if you are out of warranty costs close to a thousand bucks. And it is a damn 250w electric motor. [1] google shimano e7000 longevity

jeffbee 3y ago
Absolutely not. There has been so much innovation and improvement in batteries and motors in the past 5 years. Some kind of interoperability regulation would have completely wrecked that.
- beefield 3y ago
  Coyld you elaborate what development happened in the last 5 years that would not have happened if it was required that your battery/motor fits into one of handful standard brackets and talks (at least) standard messages?
ornornor 3y ago
That’s the reason why I built my ebike around a regular bicycle and an tsdz2 motor. It even has a FOSS firmware written by a very dedicated guy in Portugal. You can use a variety of displays with it, any battery pretty much, standard bicycle parts of course because it’s just whatever bicycle you started off with, and last I checked there was even a project to build a Garmin interface. On the downside, it’s more work, you have to repair the motor yourself when it breaks, and it’s peak Chinese engineering where tolerances can be quite approximate along with barely good enough materials. But it’s also part of the fun (for me) and I’ve put 2700km on it in three years of (very hilly) terrain; still works well.
- pwpw 3y ago
  Do you mind providing a link with more info on how to build one?
  - Schroedingersat 3y ago
    It's incredibly simple. If you can change a crank and plug in some wires you can install one. Buy tzd2. Undo bottom bracket. Put motor there. Screw battery on to carrier or bottle holder. The only hard bit is finding a trustworthy local shop to buy a 36V or 48V battery. May not be compatible with weird frame shapes, weird mountain bike frames, or proprietary nonsense from Trek or Giant.
  - ornornor 3y ago
    Here: https://github.com/OpenSourceEBike/TSDZ2_wiki/wiki https://github.com/OpenSourceEBike/TSDZ2_wiki/wiki You can also ask questions here: https://endless-sphere.com/sphere/threads/tsdz2-mid-drive-with-860c-850c-or-sw102-displays-only-flexible-opensource-firmware-casainho-code-only.93818/ https://endless-sphere.com/sphere/threads/tsdz2-mid-drive-wi... The gist is to get a semi recent hybrid or mountain bike (because they have standard bottom brackets) and swap it for the motor. The battery mounts on the frame where the water bottle typically goes. To flash the firmware you’ll need to build a cable with a STM bluepill. I wanted a quality battery that wouldn’t start a fire so I got mine from em3ev but if you like gambling it will also work with any Chinese special from aliexpress or eBay or whatever. The 48V motor will also work with a 52V battery (that’s what I use) after flashing it to open source. It’s not super difficult and you’ll learn how to maintain bicycles in the process. If you’ve never done it before, take your time and ask questions on the endless sphere thread. Checkout YouTube videos as well for anything you’re unsure about, you’re bound to find a good howto from channels like park tool or syd fixes bikes. Also note that several us and Canadian cities have community bike workshops where they’ll help you do anything to your bicycle by explaining you how to do it and letting you use their tools to do it. I knew nothing about bicycles but after going there regularly to rebuild my first acoustic bike, I’m now very comfortable doing almost anything myself at home on my own (with YT or the blue book of bicycle repair as a reference) It’s fun and very rewarding, I strongly encourage you to give it a go!
htfu 3y ago
I did google that. Seems like a few people complaining about lemons or not realizing a bike needs maintainance (chain/cassette swaps etc) and otherwise basically fine? In any case that's an eMTB part so you'd expect more trouble than something regular, just like how MTBs are way higher maintainance than road in every way. Your general point is good but it sounds like you had a bad experience and are generalizing. And how would you already be out of warranty after a few thousand km, doesn't add up.
- beefield 3y ago
  Shimano warranty is 2 years. I'm close to a small rental operation, and they had 3 out of eight motors blown within the first 2 years. 1500-6000 km on the odo.
bborud 3y ago
I'm not sure that's practical, but I think there are certain regulatory things one could do. Like requiring that especially ebike motors can be repaired, that parts are available and fairly priced, that any software needed to service bikes is made available to repair shops at decent prices etc. I don't think you really want heavily standardized components across brands since it limits innovation and forces lowest common denominator solutions. You want repairability. I choose cars, motorcycles, ebikes based on whether there is a decent repair shop nearby. Because stuff will wear out and break. You will have to get work done. And when that happens you want someone who makes an honest effort rather than some junior mechanic who will just follow the standard repair procedure no matter what. (Don't get me started on how poorly qualified brand-affiliated car workshops often are)
tmikaeld 3y ago
Hopefully, there will be businesses that will specialize in this, it's not difficult to guarantee spare parts.. It's a bike.
- euroderf 3y ago
  Ya gotta wonder to what degree right-to-repair laws are covering e-bikes (if at all).
ClumsyPilot 3y ago
for this reason I converted a bike myself - much more repairble
tpm 3y ago
> You should be able to use motors, batteries and contollers from any brand interchangeably on your bike. There is no way this (one standard for everything) will happen, because it doesn't work like this either in the car industry or in the bike industry. That said, the number of standards in bike industry is somehow manageable I think, and for some bike types (like road bikes) you can build a completely standard bike with every component easily interchangeable. However this is not the case for the motors and batteries. The price of the components is a different issue still.
- tiedieconderoga 3y ago
  We don't need every part to work in every bike, but we do need a few parts like the small-block Chevy V8: reliable, well-built, and reasonably easy to kludge into just about any donor vehicle. Are Bafang kits still a good deal for bike conversions?
- Schroedingersat 3y ago
  Wheel and bottom-bracket mount mid drive motors are quite standard. Companies like Bafang and Tongsheng (not just these) sell motors that can go on any normal frame or in any normal (sufficiently strong) wheel and are compatible with standard drivetrain components. They accept and 36V or 48V (or anything 24-56V with some software tweaking and possibly lower power) power source. It is not too late to have standards here, we just have to stop buying the shimano, bosch and yamaha nonsense (even if they are technically a little better right now).
- Cthulhu_ 3y ago
  > because it doesn't work like this either in the car industry or in the bike industry This is... not entirely true, there's heaps of standardized components in both industries. Think batteries, brake pads / brakes, springs, all the nuts and bolts, the OBD port, tires/wheels, airbags / seatbelts, and on the bike side, think cables, saddles (saddle pins), tires/wheels again, gears, pedals, etc etc. While you probably can't fully repair one car with the other, there's plenty that has been standardized by the industry and legislation.
  - 3y ago
Cthulhu_ 3y ago
Same for electric cars and err... pretty much everything for that matter. Bike parts are pretty standardized for the most part, things like tires, cables, handles and gear shifters. But it's BiG gOvErNmEnT and some people object to that.
- adrianN 3y ago
  Bike parts are, afaik, not standardized at all. It's just that there are like two companies producing 90% of the components, so that there aren't so many different systems on the market.
  - loeg 3y ago
    > Bike parts are, afaik, not standardized at all. It's just that there are like two companies producing 90% of the components, so that there aren't so many different systems on the market. Both of these statements aren't really true. There are lots of bike standards (both in the XKCD sense and sometimes in a few-enough-to-be-practical sense). Not everything is made with standard parts, but the majority of parts on the majority of bikes are. This has little to do with Shimano/SRAM being the two major groupset manufacturers -- components like steerers (standard 1-1/8" at the stem), stems (made by several manufacturers, not two), handlebars (there are several standards for the clamp diameter but 31.8mm and 35mm are probably the dominant two today), bottom brackets (again, several standards, but lots of vendors in this space), etc etc. Handlebars, wheels, chains, pedals, tires are more or less all made to a handful of interchangeable standards, by many manufacturers.

jeffbee 3y ago

Absolutely not. There has been so much innovation and improvement in batteries and motors in the past 5 years. Some kind of interoperability regulation would have completely wrecked that.

beefield 3y ago
Coyld you elaborate what development happened in the last 5 years that would not have happened if it was required that your battery/motor fits into one of handful standard brackets and talks (at least) standard messages?

ornornor 3y ago

That’s the reason why I built my ebike around a regular bicycle and an tsdz2 motor. It even has a FOSS firmware written by a very dedicated guy in Portugal. You can use a variety of displays with it, any battery pretty much, standard bicycle parts of course because it’s just whatever bicycle you started off with, and last I checked there was even a project to build a Garmin interface. On the downside, it’s more work, you have to repair the motor yourself when it breaks, and it’s peak Chinese engineering where tolerances can be quite approximate along with barely good enough materials. But it’s also part of the fun (for me) and I’ve put 2700km on it in three years of (very hilly) terrain; still works well.

pwpw 3y ago
Do you mind providing a link with more info on how to build one?
- Schroedingersat 3y ago
  It's incredibly simple. If you can change a crank and plug in some wires you can install one. Buy tzd2. Undo bottom bracket. Put motor there. Screw battery on to carrier or bottle holder. The only hard bit is finding a trustworthy local shop to buy a 36V or 48V battery. May not be compatible with weird frame shapes, weird mountain bike frames, or proprietary nonsense from Trek or Giant.
- ornornor 3y ago
  Here: https://github.com/OpenSourceEBike/TSDZ2_wiki/wiki https://github.com/OpenSourceEBike/TSDZ2_wiki/wiki You can also ask questions here: https://endless-sphere.com/sphere/threads/tsdz2-mid-drive-with-860c-850c-or-sw102-displays-only-flexible-opensource-firmware-casainho-code-only.93818/ https://endless-sphere.com/sphere/threads/tsdz2-mid-drive-wi... The gist is to get a semi recent hybrid or mountain bike (because they have standard bottom brackets) and swap it for the motor. The battery mounts on the frame where the water bottle typically goes. To flash the firmware you’ll need to build a cable with a STM bluepill. I wanted a quality battery that wouldn’t start a fire so I got mine from em3ev but if you like gambling it will also work with any Chinese special from aliexpress or eBay or whatever. The 48V motor will also work with a 52V battery (that’s what I use) after flashing it to open source. It’s not super difficult and you’ll learn how to maintain bicycles in the process. If you’ve never done it before, take your time and ask questions on the endless sphere thread. Checkout YouTube videos as well for anything you’re unsure about, you’re bound to find a good howto from channels like park tool or syd fixes bikes. Also note that several us and Canadian cities have community bike workshops where they’ll help you do anything to your bicycle by explaining you how to do it and letting you use their tools to do it. I knew nothing about bicycles but after going there regularly to rebuild my first acoustic bike, I’m now very comfortable doing almost anything myself at home on my own (with YT or the blue book of bicycle repair as a reference) It’s fun and very rewarding, I strongly encourage you to give it a go!

htfu 3y ago

I did google that. Seems like a few people complaining about lemons or not realizing a bike needs maintainance (chain/cassette swaps etc) and otherwise basically fine? In any case that's an eMTB part so you'd expect more trouble than something regular, just like how MTBs are way higher maintainance than road in every way. Your general point is good but it sounds like you had a bad experience and are generalizing. And how would you already be out of warranty after a few thousand km, doesn't add up.

beefield 3y ago
Shimano warranty is 2 years. I'm close to a small rental operation, and they had 3 out of eight motors blown within the first 2 years. 1500-6000 km on the odo.

bborud 3y ago

I'm not sure that's practical, but I think there are certain regulatory things one could do. Like requiring that especially ebike motors can be repaired, that parts are available and fairly priced, that any software needed to service bikes is made available to repair shops at decent prices etc. I don't think you really want heavily standardized components across brands since it limits innovation and forces lowest common denominator solutions. You want repairability. I choose cars, motorcycles, ebikes based on whether there is a decent repair shop nearby. Because stuff will wear out and break. You will have to get work done. And when that happens you want someone who makes an honest effort rather than some junior mechanic who will just follow the standard repair procedure no matter what. (Don't get me started on how poorly qualified brand-affiliated car workshops often are)

tmikaeld 3y ago

Hopefully, there will be businesses that will specialize in this, it's not difficult to guarantee spare parts.. It's a bike.

euroderf 3y ago
Ya gotta wonder to what degree right-to-repair laws are covering e-bikes (if at all).

ClumsyPilot 3y ago

for this reason I converted a bike myself - much more repairble

tpm 3y ago

> You should be able to use motors, batteries and contollers from any brand interchangeably on your bike. There is no way this (one standard for everything) will happen, because it doesn't work like this either in the car industry or in the bike industry. That said, the number of standards in bike industry is somehow manageable I think, and for some bike types (like road bikes) you can build a completely standard bike with every component easily interchangeable. However this is not the case for the motors and batteries. The price of the components is a different issue still.

tiedieconderoga 3y ago
We don't need every part to work in every bike, but we do need a few parts like the small-block Chevy V8: reliable, well-built, and reasonably easy to kludge into just about any donor vehicle. Are Bafang kits still a good deal for bike conversions?
Schroedingersat 3y ago
Wheel and bottom-bracket mount mid drive motors are quite standard. Companies like Bafang and Tongsheng (not just these) sell motors that can go on any normal frame or in any normal (sufficiently strong) wheel and are compatible with standard drivetrain components. They accept and 36V or 48V (or anything 24-56V with some software tweaking and possibly lower power) power source. It is not too late to have standards here, we just have to stop buying the shimano, bosch and yamaha nonsense (even if they are technically a little better right now).
Cthulhu_ 3y ago
> because it doesn't work like this either in the car industry or in the bike industry This is... not entirely true, there's heaps of standardized components in both industries. Think batteries, brake pads / brakes, springs, all the nuts and bolts, the OBD port, tires/wheels, airbags / seatbelts, and on the bike side, think cables, saddles (saddle pins), tires/wheels again, gears, pedals, etc etc. While you probably can't fully repair one car with the other, there's plenty that has been standardized by the industry and legislation.
- 3y ago

Cthulhu_ 3y ago

Same for electric cars and err... pretty much everything for that matter. Bike parts are pretty standardized for the most part, things like tires, cables, handles and gear shifters. But it's BiG gOvErNmEnT and some people object to that.

adrianN 3y ago
Bike parts are, afaik, not standardized at all. It's just that there are like two companies producing 90% of the components, so that there aren't so many different systems on the market.
- loeg 3y ago
  > Bike parts are, afaik, not standardized at all. It's just that there are like two companies producing 90% of the components, so that there aren't so many different systems on the market. Both of these statements aren't really true. There are lots of bike standards (both in the XKCD sense and sometimes in a few-enough-to-be-practical sense). Not everything is made with standard parts, but the majority of parts on the majority of bikes are. This has little to do with Shimano/SRAM being the two major groupset manufacturers -- components like steerers (standard 1-1/8" at the stem), stems (made by several manufacturers, not two), handlebars (there are several standards for the clamp diameter but 31.8mm and 35mm are probably the dominant two today), bottom brackets (again, several standards, but lots of vendors in this space), etc etc. Handlebars, wheels, chains, pedals, tires are more or less all made to a handful of interchangeable standards, by many manufacturers.