3 ms·

you seem to be pretty keen to excuse anything nato does. i think nato purpousefully did a series of things to piss russia off and ukranian people are suffering

you seem to be pretty keen to excuse anything nato does. i think nato purpousefully did a series of things to piss russia off and ukranian people are suffering as a result, being stuck between two imperialism. also are you aware that in 2008 the vast majority of ukranian population opposed joining nato. had ukraine joined then the war would have really been over in three days, i think

mcv 4y ago
I'm not excusing NATO, I'm just explaining what happened. Putin fanboys love to pretend that NATO is aggressively expansionist, but it's not. Most of eastern Europe begged to join NATO, to the point that Poland practically blackmailed Clinton into letting them join (which Clinton originally wasn't a fan of). NATO extended its mutual defense to these countries. The only reason why that should piss off Russia is if Russia had plans to conquer those countries. Turns out they do. But that's not NATO's fault. Don't try to shift the blame to NATO here; this war is entirely, for the full 100%, Putin's fault.
- medo-bear 4y ago
  you obvioisly drank the nato coolaid but please tell me whats wrong with my understanding. here goes 1990. nato makes the not one inch eastward promise 1999. in disregard for international law, nato bombs russia ally yugoslavia and takes over its southern teritory 1999. nato expands into poland and several other ex warsaw countries 2004. nato expands into ex-ussr, taking baltic states as members 2008. april. nato said it will take in georgia and ukraine 2008. may. us and majority of nato countries recognize the unilateral declaration of independence by kosovo, in disregard to previously signed un agreements, and in disregard to international law forbidding unilateral secessions 2008. august. georgia tries to retake control over autonomous ethnic-minority regions. russia stops this. georgia looses any chance of becoming part of nato 2010. ukraine government abandons plans to join nato 2014. people from west ukraine are driven by busses into kiev to overthrow an elected government. us publically supports the coup. elected president flees to russia. the goverent is overthrown. east ukraine opposes the overthrow and begins to rebel against the new government. 2014. crimea unilateraly seceeds from ukraine, citing the kosovo precedent. simultaneously it becomes part of russia 2014. civil war accross eastern ukraine, centering around donbas 2014. minsk agreements signed 2016-2019 nato suffers from being perceived as irrelevant. 2018. nato requests substantial funding to improve its information campaign. huge effort to rewrite the history of 'not an inch eastward' promise 2022. january. ukranian government publically states it has no intension of fulfilling minsk agreements 2022. february. russia invades ukraine to me this timeline of events strongly suggests that ukraine and its people are a mere chess piece in US imperial ambissions
  - hdjjhhvvhga 4y ago
    > 1999. nato expands into poland and several other ex warsaw countries And the people in these countries (almost half of Europe!) still celebrate this day, just like the day they managed to liberate themselves from Russians. No wonder it makes Putin mad.
    - medo-bear 4y ago
      i think most people accross eastern europe have bigger problems than nato celebrations or russia hating. like for example, making ends meet. i wonder how many people in eastern europe would have a home today had it not been for the socialist period
  - mopsi 4y ago
    > 1990. nato makes the not one inch eastward promise Never happened. In fact, Russia and NATO have explicitly in writing (1997 treaty) that they respect the right of third parties to seek security as they see fit. Nor did Russia ever bring it up until Putin needed a justification for invading Georgia. Even any notion of such talks is absurd, given that you place it a year before the USSR collapsed. Collapse of the USSR and parts of it applying for NATO (and eventually becoming members) was inconceivable at the time. As participants have recollected, the context of talks at the time was German reunification and stationing NATO forces in Eastern Germany. Nobody could imagine that the USSR itself would soon cease to exist. This directly ties to another point: > 2004. nato expands into ex-ussr, taking baltic states as members (1) NATO didn't "expand", but those countries were hell-bent on seeking security to protect themselves from getting occupied ever again through cooperation in international organizations. That was set as a foreign policy goal in 1993. (2) How did Putin react to that in 2004 when he met Schröder days after the Baltics became full members of NATO? He said that it's fine, never brought up any alleged promises. http://www.en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/30678 http://www.en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/30678
    - medo-bear 4y ago
      cool story bro. russia bad nato good. if nato do something bad it is for good reason or it didnt happen or russia was behind it some people just cant shake totalitarian frame of mind

mcv 4y ago

I'm not excusing NATO, I'm just explaining what happened. Putin fanboys love to pretend that NATO is aggressively expansionist, but it's not. Most of eastern Europe begged to join NATO, to the point that Poland practically blackmailed Clinton into letting them join (which Clinton originally wasn't a fan of). NATO extended its mutual defense to these countries. The only reason why that should piss off Russia is if Russia had plans to conquer those countries. Turns out they do. But that's not NATO's fault. Don't try to shift the blame to NATO here; this war is entirely, for the full 100%, Putin's fault.

medo-bear 4y ago
you obvioisly drank the nato coolaid but please tell me whats wrong with my understanding. here goes 1990. nato makes the not one inch eastward promise 1999. in disregard for international law, nato bombs russia ally yugoslavia and takes over its southern teritory 1999. nato expands into poland and several other ex warsaw countries 2004. nato expands into ex-ussr, taking baltic states as members 2008. april. nato said it will take in georgia and ukraine 2008. may. us and majority of nato countries recognize the unilateral declaration of independence by kosovo, in disregard to previously signed un agreements, and in disregard to international law forbidding unilateral secessions 2008. august. georgia tries to retake control over autonomous ethnic-minority regions. russia stops this. georgia looses any chance of becoming part of nato 2010. ukraine government abandons plans to join nato 2014. people from west ukraine are driven by busses into kiev to overthrow an elected government. us publically supports the coup. elected president flees to russia. the goverent is overthrown. east ukraine opposes the overthrow and begins to rebel against the new government. 2014. crimea unilateraly seceeds from ukraine, citing the kosovo precedent. simultaneously it becomes part of russia 2014. civil war accross eastern ukraine, centering around donbas 2014. minsk agreements signed 2016-2019 nato suffers from being perceived as irrelevant. 2018. nato requests substantial funding to improve its information campaign. huge effort to rewrite the history of 'not an inch eastward' promise 2022. january. ukranian government publically states it has no intension of fulfilling minsk agreements 2022. february. russia invades ukraine to me this timeline of events strongly suggests that ukraine and its people are a mere chess piece in US imperial ambissions
- hdjjhhvvhga 4y ago
  > 1999. nato expands into poland and several other ex warsaw countries And the people in these countries (almost half of Europe!) still celebrate this day, just like the day they managed to liberate themselves from Russians. No wonder it makes Putin mad.
  - medo-bear 4y ago
    i think most people accross eastern europe have bigger problems than nato celebrations or russia hating. like for example, making ends meet. i wonder how many people in eastern europe would have a home today had it not been for the socialist period
- mopsi 4y ago
  > 1990. nato makes the not one inch eastward promise Never happened. In fact, Russia and NATO have explicitly in writing (1997 treaty) that they respect the right of third parties to seek security as they see fit. Nor did Russia ever bring it up until Putin needed a justification for invading Georgia. Even any notion of such talks is absurd, given that you place it a year before the USSR collapsed. Collapse of the USSR and parts of it applying for NATO (and eventually becoming members) was inconceivable at the time. As participants have recollected, the context of talks at the time was German reunification and stationing NATO forces in Eastern Germany. Nobody could imagine that the USSR itself would soon cease to exist. This directly ties to another point: > 2004. nato expands into ex-ussr, taking baltic states as members (1) NATO didn't "expand", but those countries were hell-bent on seeking security to protect themselves from getting occupied ever again through cooperation in international organizations. That was set as a foreign policy goal in 1993. (2) How did Putin react to that in 2004 when he met Schröder days after the Baltics became full members of NATO? He said that it's fine, never brought up any alleged promises. http://www.en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/30678 http://www.en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/30678
  - medo-bear 4y ago
    cool story bro. russia bad nato good. if nato do something bad it is for good reason or it didnt happen or russia was behind it some people just cant shake totalitarian frame of mind