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I don't really think there's any shortcuts one can do to adopt self-discipline. I think it is born out of serious changes in ones life if it wasn't already taug

I don't really think there's any shortcuts one can do to adopt self-discipline. I think it is born out of serious changes in ones life if it wasn't already taught and adopted at a younger age.

haswell 4y ago
I think you're correct in the sense that one does need to adopt changes, but I'd offer a slightly alternate framing of the process of change itself. I've spent quite a bit of time struggling to implement serious changes, because that's how I thought about them: serious changes. When framed this way, it sounds difficult. If you happen to be depressed, it sounds impossible. The good news is that there are approaches that can help bring about serious change without requiring an outflow of willpower - willpower you don't have because you don't have the self-discipline. Starting with small core habit changes makes all of this more possible. At some point, I was able to convince myself that if I'm willing to spend <n> hours on distraction each day, I can commit to 10 minutes of mindfulness each morning. That 10 minute commitment became a snowball of positive change. The end result was a lot of change, yes, but it does not require a herculean effort or some impossible transformation. It's more like laying bricks. Each brick is manageable. The resulting wall is much greater than the sum of the individual bricks. I wouldn't call this a shortcut, but it was certainly a lot easier than trying to just "fix" everyone through sheer force of will.
- Madmallard 4y ago
  the small changes that form habits don't come out of willpower and thin air that's a myth. the person was already in the mindset for positive change and motivated
  - haswell 4y ago
    One still has to have enough motivation to make small changes, yes. I'm not claiming that there's a magical path that requires no effort at all. The point is that small changes are often achievable in situations where large changes are not. It's a classic case of breaking a large problem into small enough chunks to make it possible to tackle. This is a drastically different undertaking and is far more likely to succeed than any kind of "big bang" approach.
    - Madmallard 4y ago
      Where is the evidence that this is how it is other than an intuitive argument? I would challenge that from the getgo. A lot of feeliscience ends up not panning well when confronted with scientific rigor. People aren’t in much control of themselves in reality, and those that seem to be often have so many pieces of upbringing context that support the development of agency.
      - haswell 4y ago
        I grew up in an abusive environment, and have dealt with the process of unwinding C-PTSD for much of my life (now mid 30s). The environment I escaped is the type of environment that books about learned helplessness (a concept at the center of modern therapy) are written about. I mention this only to add context to my personal experience, and to highlight that the mindset I had to escape was ingrained from the earliest age. In short, there was little to no "supporting the development of agency", and in most cases, the exact opposite was true. The process of therapy, whether that's CBT, ACT, etc. are all about making incremental changes that eventually all combine to rewire how you think and/or act. The entire therapy journey consists of these kinds of small changes along with active processing of past events to free up mental capacity. I'm highlighting therapy here because the related disciplines have been studied extensively. The same concepts apply in other contexts (and are common in fields like software). Outside of traditional methods of therapy, practices like mindfulness meditation have been studied quite a bit, and there is a growing body of research on its benefits [0]. In particular, it seems to lower friction for hard things by helping you see more clearly the reality of why you're struggling with doing things, and why not doing them is often worse in the long run. > I would challenge that from the getgo. To clarify, what are you challenging, specifically? The idea that small changes are easier to execute than large ones? This has been the subject of deep exploration across many walks of life, and on the personal improvement front is at the center of books like Atomic Habits, which itself is based on a foundation of research. The reason small changes work is that we absorb them into our daily routines until they no longer require active thinking to accomplish. Part of what happens is that you also start confronting the bad reasoning you've been using to justify not acting. Embarrassingly, I had to re-establish basic habits like brushing my teeth. Clarity through mindfulness led to the realization that avoiding the tiny annoyance of doing this each day would be far less painful than the eventual dental issues I would otherwise suffer. I always knew that, but pausing to actually think clearly is what turned that knowing into a deep realization. - [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_meditation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_meditation (linking to Wikipedia as a shortcut to the extensive references in the article if you're curious).
- charlieflowers 4y ago
  > I can commit to 10 minutes of mindfulness each morning .... That 10 minute commitment became a snowball of positive change. Which particular flavor / approach to mindfulness training did you apply that led to this outcome?
  - haswell 4y ago
    While doing my best to distract myself from life at the time, I read the book “Waking Up” by Sam Harris, and this got me curious. I’ve since been using the Waking Up app also created by Harris. The introductory course is a flavor of Vipassana or “seeing things as they are”, and that’s where I started. Harris has an extensive background and relationships with many meditation teachers and experts across various disciplines, and he tries to distill the best bits from each into the core meditation course. In addition to the core practices, the app has a deep library of content from other expert teachers ranging from theory/philosophy to guided practice, and I’ve found it fascinating to try meditations from various schools of thought. Some of the extra content goes down some (secular) Buddhism rabbit holes if that’s of any interest. (Not affiliated with Harris, but I’m a pretty happy user).
simonswords82 4y ago
I tend to agree that there are no shortcuts. However I do think you can be disciplined in one area (e.g. work) and lack discipline in another (e.g. diet and exercise). So discipline is not an on or off switch for a person, it's more granular and nuanced than that.

I don't really think there's any shortcuts one can do to adopt self-discipline. I think it is born out of serious changes in ones life if it wasn't already taught and adopted at a younger age.

haswell 4y ago

I think you're correct in the sense that one does need to adopt changes, but I'd offer a slightly alternate framing of the process of change itself. I've spent quite a bit of time struggling to implement serious changes, because that's how I thought about them: serious changes. When framed this way, it sounds difficult. If you happen to be depressed, it sounds impossible. The good news is that there are approaches that can help bring about serious change without requiring an outflow of willpower - willpower you don't have because you don't have the self-discipline. Starting with small core habit changes makes all of this more possible. At some point, I was able to convince myself that if I'm willing to spend <n> hours on distraction each day, I can commit to 10 minutes of mindfulness each morning. That 10 minute commitment became a snowball of positive change. The end result was a lot of change, yes, but it does not require a herculean effort or some impossible transformation. It's more like laying bricks. Each brick is manageable. The resulting wall is much greater than the sum of the individual bricks. I wouldn't call this a shortcut, but it was certainly a lot easier than trying to just "fix" everyone through sheer force of will.

Madmallard 4y ago
the small changes that form habits don't come out of willpower and thin air that's a myth. the person was already in the mindset for positive change and motivated
- haswell 4y ago
  One still has to have enough motivation to make small changes, yes. I'm not claiming that there's a magical path that requires no effort at all. The point is that small changes are often achievable in situations where large changes are not. It's a classic case of breaking a large problem into small enough chunks to make it possible to tackle. This is a drastically different undertaking and is far more likely to succeed than any kind of "big bang" approach.
  - Madmallard 4y ago
    Where is the evidence that this is how it is other than an intuitive argument? I would challenge that from the getgo. A lot of feeliscience ends up not panning well when confronted with scientific rigor. People aren’t in much control of themselves in reality, and those that seem to be often have so many pieces of upbringing context that support the development of agency.
    - haswell 4y ago
      I grew up in an abusive environment, and have dealt with the process of unwinding C-PTSD for much of my life (now mid 30s). The environment I escaped is the type of environment that books about learned helplessness (a concept at the center of modern therapy) are written about. I mention this only to add context to my personal experience, and to highlight that the mindset I had to escape was ingrained from the earliest age. In short, there was little to no "supporting the development of agency", and in most cases, the exact opposite was true. The process of therapy, whether that's CBT, ACT, etc. are all about making incremental changes that eventually all combine to rewire how you think and/or act. The entire therapy journey consists of these kinds of small changes along with active processing of past events to free up mental capacity. I'm highlighting therapy here because the related disciplines have been studied extensively. The same concepts apply in other contexts (and are common in fields like software). Outside of traditional methods of therapy, practices like mindfulness meditation have been studied quite a bit, and there is a growing body of research on its benefits [0]. In particular, it seems to lower friction for hard things by helping you see more clearly the reality of why you're struggling with doing things, and why not doing them is often worse in the long run. > I would challenge that from the getgo. To clarify, what are you challenging, specifically? The idea that small changes are easier to execute than large ones? This has been the subject of deep exploration across many walks of life, and on the personal improvement front is at the center of books like Atomic Habits, which itself is based on a foundation of research. The reason small changes work is that we absorb them into our daily routines until they no longer require active thinking to accomplish. Part of what happens is that you also start confronting the bad reasoning you've been using to justify not acting. Embarrassingly, I had to re-establish basic habits like brushing my teeth. Clarity through mindfulness led to the realization that avoiding the tiny annoyance of doing this each day would be far less painful than the eventual dental issues I would otherwise suffer. I always knew that, but pausing to actually think clearly is what turned that knowing into a deep realization. - [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_meditation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_meditation (linking to Wikipedia as a shortcut to the extensive references in the article if you're curious).
charlieflowers 4y ago
> I can commit to 10 minutes of mindfulness each morning .... That 10 minute commitment became a snowball of positive change. Which particular flavor / approach to mindfulness training did you apply that led to this outcome?
- haswell 4y ago
  While doing my best to distract myself from life at the time, I read the book “Waking Up” by Sam Harris, and this got me curious. I’ve since been using the Waking Up app also created by Harris. The introductory course is a flavor of Vipassana or “seeing things as they are”, and that’s where I started. Harris has an extensive background and relationships with many meditation teachers and experts across various disciplines, and he tries to distill the best bits from each into the core meditation course. In addition to the core practices, the app has a deep library of content from other expert teachers ranging from theory/philosophy to guided practice, and I’ve found it fascinating to try meditations from various schools of thought. Some of the extra content goes down some (secular) Buddhism rabbit holes if that’s of any interest. (Not affiliated with Harris, but I’m a pretty happy user).

simonswords82 4y ago

I tend to agree that there are no shortcuts. However I do think you can be disciplined in one area (e.g. work) and lack discipline in another (e.g. diet and exercise). So discipline is not an on or off switch for a person, it's more granular and nuanced than that.