6 ms·

I also feel like the fancy software features ate up a lot of resources for not much return, which makes me wonder how much cheaper EVs could get with a more bas

I also feel like the fancy software features ate up a lot of resources for not much return, which makes me wonder how much cheaper EVs could get with a more basic/classic set of features (and hardware supporting them). Only need a backup camera, all the sensors can go except for backup, no need for a GPU/PC/AI ASICs on board, etc. Basically a 2014 Ford with an EV drivetrain.

iknowstuff 4y ago
Teslas have fewer chips than legacy OEMs due to better integration. They are already the most cost efficient EVs to build, and they’re making further progress as described on investor day.
- soperj 4y ago
  Elon has proven over and over and over again to lie through his teeth. No way that I'd rely on investor day information.
  - abledon 4y ago
    Munroe tear downs lie ?
    - FireBeyond 4y ago
      Munroe, heavy long investor in Tesla? Who only became pro-Tesla after investing in them?
- t0mas88 4y ago
  They use fewer chips due to cutting corners: 1. Their "self driving" adaptive cruise is very bad compared to other brands. Because they dropped radar and don't use proven modules like others. 2. Same for their idiotic attempt to replace well working sensors for automatic wipers with not working cameras. 3. And now this next thing on parking sensors that just don't work. Still hordes of people are stupid enough to believe Musk claiming it's all great innovation and good for the customer. While in reality things just don't work and Tesla is cutting corners. Elon Musk is a prime example of an "alternative facts" kind of liar. Keep shouting loud enough and some people start te believe you. He got very far with all his lies, but so did Bernie Madoff...
  - iknowstuff 4y ago
    Lmao in your own personal world perhaps. Out of spec has a basic freeway test on youtube - most cars ping pong within lanes, shut off when the road curves too much and/or only work on select mapped sections of freeways. You can diss the wipers or parking sensors but pretending that the competition is anywhere near autopilot, especially the newest one based on FSD code, is hilarious.
    - t0mas88 4y ago
      What do curves have to do with adaptive cruise control? That's just keeping a speed and a distance, without randomly hitting the brakes. Other brands do it much better than Tesla at the moment.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - freeone3000 4y ago
        The distance is detected by radar or sonar and comes from the front of the car. A curve means you’re no longer dead on to the car in front of you — and in extreme cases, are dead on to a car from another lane. This proved difficult for the radar packages of the 00s
    - FireBeyond 4y ago
      > out of spec has a basic freeway test on youtube - most cars ping pong within lanes Maybe several years ago. My car stays happily in the center of the lane -and- doesn't veer to the right with offramps, or lane count changes. One of the problems with some Tesla owners is they buy too fully into the "dinosaur" thinking, and assume that other manufacturers have not adjusted their thinking since the 90s. My car actively maps the road ahead and will, while staying in lanes, avoid potholes, for one very simple example.
  - brandonagr2 4y ago
    Not sure which reality you are in, adaptive cruise and automatic wipers works great in my car. What data are you basing "adaptive cruise is very bad compared to others" and "automatic wipers with not working cameras" on?
- chollida1 4y ago
  > Teslas have fewer chips than legacy OEMs due to better integration. They are already the most cost efficient EVs to build This is interesting. What links can you provide backing this up?
ssgodderidge 4y ago
Yep. We need the electric equivalent of a starter car with good range and basic hardware. I'd take a car with roll-up windows, physical buttons, single A/C controls, 4 doors, 300 mile range, and a backup cam. Would the masses take it? Who knows. But I'd be all in on that one.
- detritus 4y ago
  Count me in for one of those too.
- JohnFen 4y ago
  I'd take it. I wouldn't even need the A/C, as I live in a part of the country where it wouldn't get used more than a week or two in the year anyway.
  - kube-system 4y ago
    If it has a heat pump, which I argue it should, ”AC” is basically free.
- jvanderbot 4y ago
  Sign me up. I hate everything about my Tesla except the drive.
- paxys 4y ago
  There are plenty of them out there if you are willing to give up the Tesla brand. Look up the Nissan Leaf, Volkswagen ID.4 or Chevy Bolt.
  - ladberg 4y ago
    Unfortunately the ID.4 is a bit too techified for my taste. The smart system to control windows and mirrors crashed while driving on the highway once, closing the mirrors inwards so I couldn't use them and stopping me from rolling down the windows.
  - BryantD 4y ago
gambiting 4y ago
I have a VW e-Up and it's basically that. 160 miles of electric range, analog gauges, real buttons for everything, it has a reverse camera and parking sensors but that's about it. I love it. It's amazingly simple - you turn the key and drive, nothing to worry about. And new these were/are about £20k.
- Lutzb 4y ago
  I read a while ago that these cars are pretty much unobtainable. Can someone shed some light as to why this is? The premise of the car seems like it would sell very well.
  - trilbyglens 4y ago
    Probably sold out due to being popular hah.
  - gambiting 4y ago
    The same reason why most other EVs are unobtainable - the production line is maxed out and orders are closed through 2023. There's loads of second hand ones for sale that I can see online, and personally I got mine through a lease deal - signed paperwork, got the car delivered 3 days later. If I wanted to order one I'd probably wait a year.
  - numpad0 4y ago
    I believe most of those are so-called compliance cars, cars designed to mainly satisfy imposed legal requirements, such as weighted average of CO2 emissions for a brand.
    - gambiting 4y ago
      Sure, but they only fulfil that purpose if they sell loads. Just it existing does nothing for manufacturer's averages. They need to sell one of these for every 200g CO2/km car to average 100g CO2/km overall.
laweijfmvo 4y ago
Give me a Model 3 drive train (and charging infrastructure) with the tech and interior of a mid-2000s Toyota and I'll drive it for life.
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  I agree, though I'd like infotainment just new enough to support CarPlay.
  - AlexandrB 4y ago
    Yes. I've never used a car infotainment system that was better than CarPlay. Plus Android Auto/CarPlay allow me to leverage stuff I'm already paying for (Spotify, 3G connectivity, etc) to enhance the car.
  - fshbbdssbbgdd 4y ago
    What’s even better is an infotainment system old enough that it has the standard double DIN interface, so you can trivially swap in a brand new CarPlay unit.
- meroes 4y ago
  Of course you would. That’s why it never happen!
abledon 4y ago
Checkout the latest auto line daily w sandy munroe , Tesla is going to 48v wiring instead of multiple 12v channels https://insideevs.com/news/656775/tesla-switch-48v-voltage-system/amp/ https://insideevs.com/news/656775/tesla-switch-48v-voltage-s... Will cost less and be more weight efficient
- mynameisvlad 4y ago
  Do you actually think the removal of a few bundles of wires will make any sort of difference in either price or weight when the battery pack weighs around 1000lbs and costs $10-20k to replace?
- GeorgeTirebiter 4y ago
  Actually.... when I worked there seven years ago, I wrote a point-by-point memo explaining why 48V was such a win (trying to move to 48V for falcon wing doors), even having the TI guys build for us some custom PCBs w/+12 to +48V converters that we could try for the powerful motors required. However....the decision was made to stick with +12V because, mainly, the Industry pumped out accessories (door locks, fans, you name it) that run on +12, and hence +48 would be 'custom' (read: 'expensive'). Was also true of the actuators. The moby FETs needed to switch the current existed and heatsinking wasn't too much of a problem, and so.... +12V it was. Big-ass thick wires... ok.... It seems some others inside found my memo recently -- or re-discovered what I had found -- and, finally, +48V seems to be moving into vehicles. With a +48V LiFePo battery, it should work really well. And to the original comment here: yes, your copper wiring is smaller because E x I is same but I*2*R is less because I is less for given power. Note the squared term; that is why +48V is a win. Somehow, it seems like some folks (I am by no means the first!) 'see the future' but for reasons I don't fully understand, The Future seems to take longer to get here than necessary.
  - com2kid 4y ago
    > Somehow, it seems like some folks (I am by no means the first!) 'see the future' but for reasons I don't fully understand, The Future seems to take longer to get here than necessary. Microsoft tried to sell the world on Smart TVs back when most Americans had dial up. Smart car infotainment back in I think it was 2008 or 2009, complete with voice control. Sometimes being early can be worse than being late. (Look at all the early attempts at ebooks!)
paxys 4y ago
It's the opposite. All of these fancy features cost almost nothing extra for the manufacturer but are used to bump up the price by $10-20K over an equivalent no-frills car.
- jjfoooo4 4y ago
  Not only this, but the features have rapidly transitioned from fancy features unique to Tesla to table stakes features of other manufacturers.
ilrwbwrkhv 4y ago
I feel Tesla and Netflix are really similar. They spent a huge amount of money on software but they failed to understand, they are not a software company. I have moved on from Tesla to the Taycan and the Ionic and they are both better products today.
- electriclove 4y ago
  Serious question.. Is the software on the Taycan or Ionic a better experience than in the Tesla?
  - AlexandrB 4y ago
    The real question is whether Tesla's software is better than CarPlay/Android Auto. I don't want my car manufacturer competing with Apple/Google and their 3rd party app ecosystems because they're going to lose every time. Give me the controls I need to drive the car as physical buttons/levers, let my phone take over the infotainment system.
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    But not everyone cares about the software that much in their cars. I don't care about playing Doom or The Witcher on the giant touchscreen infotainment system in my car, nor do I want any so called "smart" featured that don't work right half the time. Give me Android/Apple connect and physical knobs and switches and I'm good.
  - ilrwbwrkhv 4y ago
    The software? I haven't even thought about it as much till you asked this question. But the Taycan and the Ionic are both a better car at this stage than a Tesla.
  - timc3 4y ago
    As a Taycan owner I would say it isn’t ( there are a lot of factors involved to sum that up ). It’s a better car though.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
babypuncher 4y ago
The only infotainment system a car needs is a dumb screen that supports CarPlay and Android Auto. And yet for some reason GM is planning to remove CarPlay and Android Auto from their EV lineup in the next year or so, because screw you consumers.
m463 4y ago
I like the driver assistance. The early mobileeye autopilot was actually pretty good, it did traffic aware cruise control and autosteer, making driving easier. Everything after that seems only marginally better.
rekoil 4y ago
Yup, then you plug in an iPhone with CarPlay gen 2 for the infotainment and you're good to go.

iknowstuff 4y ago

Teslas have fewer chips than legacy OEMs due to better integration. They are already the most cost efficient EVs to build, and they’re making further progress as described on investor day.

soperj 4y ago
Elon has proven over and over and over again to lie through his teeth. No way that I'd rely on investor day information.
- abledon 4y ago
  Munroe tear downs lie ?
  - FireBeyond 4y ago
    Munroe, heavy long investor in Tesla? Who only became pro-Tesla after investing in them?
t0mas88 4y ago
They use fewer chips due to cutting corners: 1. Their "self driving" adaptive cruise is very bad compared to other brands. Because they dropped radar and don't use proven modules like others. 2. Same for their idiotic attempt to replace well working sensors for automatic wipers with not working cameras. 3. And now this next thing on parking sensors that just don't work. Still hordes of people are stupid enough to believe Musk claiming it's all great innovation and good for the customer. While in reality things just don't work and Tesla is cutting corners. Elon Musk is a prime example of an "alternative facts" kind of liar. Keep shouting loud enough and some people start te believe you. He got very far with all his lies, but so did Bernie Madoff...
- iknowstuff 4y ago
  Lmao in your own personal world perhaps. Out of spec has a basic freeway test on youtube - most cars ping pong within lanes, shut off when the road curves too much and/or only work on select mapped sections of freeways. You can diss the wipers or parking sensors but pretending that the competition is anywhere near autopilot, especially the newest one based on FSD code, is hilarious.
  - t0mas88 4y ago
    What do curves have to do with adaptive cruise control? That's just keeping a speed and a distance, without randomly hitting the brakes. Other brands do it much better than Tesla at the moment.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - freeone3000 4y ago
      The distance is detected by radar or sonar and comes from the front of the car. A curve means you’re no longer dead on to the car in front of you — and in extreme cases, are dead on to a car from another lane. This proved difficult for the radar packages of the 00s
  - FireBeyond 4y ago
    > out of spec has a basic freeway test on youtube - most cars ping pong within lanes Maybe several years ago. My car stays happily in the center of the lane -and- doesn't veer to the right with offramps, or lane count changes. One of the problems with some Tesla owners is they buy too fully into the "dinosaur" thinking, and assume that other manufacturers have not adjusted their thinking since the 90s. My car actively maps the road ahead and will, while staying in lanes, avoid potholes, for one very simple example.
- brandonagr2 4y ago
  Not sure which reality you are in, adaptive cruise and automatic wipers works great in my car. What data are you basing "adaptive cruise is very bad compared to others" and "automatic wipers with not working cameras" on?
chollida1 4y ago
> Teslas have fewer chips than legacy OEMs due to better integration. They are already the most cost efficient EVs to build This is interesting. What links can you provide backing this up?

ssgodderidge 4y ago

Yep. We need the electric equivalent of a starter car with good range and basic hardware. I'd take a car with roll-up windows, physical buttons, single A/C controls, 4 doors, 300 mile range, and a backup cam. Would the masses take it? Who knows. But I'd be all in on that one.

detritus 4y ago
Count me in for one of those too.
JohnFen 4y ago
I'd take it. I wouldn't even need the A/C, as I live in a part of the country where it wouldn't get used more than a week or two in the year anyway.
- kube-system 4y ago
  If it has a heat pump, which I argue it should, ”AC” is basically free.
jvanderbot 4y ago
Sign me up. I hate everything about my Tesla except the drive.
paxys 4y ago
There are plenty of them out there if you are willing to give up the Tesla brand. Look up the Nissan Leaf, Volkswagen ID.4 or Chevy Bolt.
- ladberg 4y ago
  Unfortunately the ID.4 is a bit too techified for my taste. The smart system to control windows and mirrors crashed while driving on the highway once, closing the mirrors inwards so I couldn't use them and stopping me from rolling down the windows.
- BryantD 4y ago

gambiting 4y ago

I have a VW e-Up and it's basically that. 160 miles of electric range, analog gauges, real buttons for everything, it has a reverse camera and parking sensors but that's about it. I love it. It's amazingly simple - you turn the key and drive, nothing to worry about. And new these were/are about £20k.

Lutzb 4y ago
I read a while ago that these cars are pretty much unobtainable. Can someone shed some light as to why this is? The premise of the car seems like it would sell very well.
- trilbyglens 4y ago
  Probably sold out due to being popular hah.
- gambiting 4y ago
  The same reason why most other EVs are unobtainable - the production line is maxed out and orders are closed through 2023. There's loads of second hand ones for sale that I can see online, and personally I got mine through a lease deal - signed paperwork, got the car delivered 3 days later. If I wanted to order one I'd probably wait a year.
- numpad0 4y ago
  I believe most of those are so-called compliance cars, cars designed to mainly satisfy imposed legal requirements, such as weighted average of CO2 emissions for a brand.
  - gambiting 4y ago
    Sure, but they only fulfil that purpose if they sell loads. Just it existing does nothing for manufacturer's averages. They need to sell one of these for every 200g CO2/km car to average 100g CO2/km overall.

laweijfmvo 4y ago

Give me a Model 3 drive train (and charging infrastructure) with the tech and interior of a mid-2000s Toyota and I'll drive it for life.

rootusrootus 4y ago
I agree, though I'd like infotainment just new enough to support CarPlay.
- AlexandrB 4y ago
  Yes. I've never used a car infotainment system that was better than CarPlay. Plus Android Auto/CarPlay allow me to leverage stuff I'm already paying for (Spotify, 3G connectivity, etc) to enhance the car.
- fshbbdssbbgdd 4y ago
  What’s even better is an infotainment system old enough that it has the standard double DIN interface, so you can trivially swap in a brand new CarPlay unit.
meroes 4y ago
Of course you would. That’s why it never happen!

abledon 4y ago

Checkout the latest auto line daily w sandy munroe , Tesla is going to 48v wiring instead of multiple 12v channels https://insideevs.com/news/656775/tesla-switch-48v-voltage-system/amp/ https://insideevs.com/news/656775/tesla-switch-48v-voltage-s... Will cost less and be more weight efficient

mynameisvlad 4y ago
Do you actually think the removal of a few bundles of wires will make any sort of difference in either price or weight when the battery pack weighs around 1000lbs and costs $10-20k to replace?
GeorgeTirebiter 4y ago
Actually.... when I worked there seven years ago, I wrote a point-by-point memo explaining why 48V was such a win (trying to move to 48V for falcon wing doors), even having the TI guys build for us some custom PCBs w/+12 to +48V converters that we could try for the powerful motors required. However....the decision was made to stick with +12V because, mainly, the Industry pumped out accessories (door locks, fans, you name it) that run on +12, and hence +48 would be 'custom' (read: 'expensive'). Was also true of the actuators. The moby FETs needed to switch the current existed and heatsinking wasn't too much of a problem, and so.... +12V it was. Big-ass thick wires... ok.... It seems some others inside found my memo recently -- or re-discovered what I had found -- and, finally, +48V seems to be moving into vehicles. With a +48V LiFePo battery, it should work really well. And to the original comment here: yes, your copper wiring is smaller because E x I is same but I*2*R is less because I is less for given power. Note the squared term; that is why +48V is a win. Somehow, it seems like some folks (I am by no means the first!) 'see the future' but for reasons I don't fully understand, The Future seems to take longer to get here than necessary.
- com2kid 4y ago
  > Somehow, it seems like some folks (I am by no means the first!) 'see the future' but for reasons I don't fully understand, The Future seems to take longer to get here than necessary. Microsoft tried to sell the world on Smart TVs back when most Americans had dial up. Smart car infotainment back in I think it was 2008 or 2009, complete with voice control. Sometimes being early can be worse than being late. (Look at all the early attempts at ebooks!)

paxys 4y ago

It's the opposite. All of these fancy features cost almost nothing extra for the manufacturer but are used to bump up the price by $10-20K over an equivalent no-frills car.

jjfoooo4 4y ago
Not only this, but the features have rapidly transitioned from fancy features unique to Tesla to table stakes features of other manufacturers.

ilrwbwrkhv 4y ago

I feel Tesla and Netflix are really similar. They spent a huge amount of money on software but they failed to understand, they are not a software company. I have moved on from Tesla to the Taycan and the Ionic and they are both better products today.

electriclove 4y ago
Serious question.. Is the software on the Taycan or Ionic a better experience than in the Tesla?
- AlexandrB 4y ago
  The real question is whether Tesla's software is better than CarPlay/Android Auto. I don't want my car manufacturer competing with Apple/Google and their 3rd party app ecosystems because they're going to lose every time. Give me the controls I need to drive the car as physical buttons/levers, let my phone take over the infotainment system.
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  But not everyone cares about the software that much in their cars. I don't care about playing Doom or The Witcher on the giant touchscreen infotainment system in my car, nor do I want any so called "smart" featured that don't work right half the time. Give me Android/Apple connect and physical knobs and switches and I'm good.
- ilrwbwrkhv 4y ago
  The software? I haven't even thought about it as much till you asked this question. But the Taycan and the Ionic are both a better car at this stage than a Tesla.
- timc3 4y ago
  As a Taycan owner I would say it isn’t ( there are a lot of factors involved to sum that up ). It’s a better car though.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

babypuncher 4y ago

The only infotainment system a car needs is a dumb screen that supports CarPlay and Android Auto. And yet for some reason GM is planning to remove CarPlay and Android Auto from their EV lineup in the next year or so, because screw you consumers.

m463 4y ago

I like the driver assistance. The early mobileeye autopilot was actually pretty good, it did traffic aware cruise control and autosteer, making driving easier. Everything after that seems only marginally better.

rekoil 4y ago

Yup, then you plug in an iPhone with CarPlay gen 2 for the infotainment and you're good to go.