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Tesla is behaving like a company which doesn't realize the competition is catching up fast. For a long time they were the only game in town if you wanted an act
by Analemma_ 4y ago
Tesla is behaving like a company which doesn't realize the competition is catching up fast. For a long time they were the only game in town if you wanted an actually-good EV, which let them get away with some of their weirder and worse decisions, but now there are lots of good options available and it's no longer necessary to put up with this. I think they're in for a bad couple years if they don't return to putting the customer first.
- user3939382 4y agoI’d never want to rely on the power grid to be mobile in a widespread emergency. EV might be okay as a second car. I’ve lived through civil unrest so maybe just my bias.
- baggachipz 4y agoYou rely on the power grid for gasoline too. Gas doesn't pump without electricity. Also, refineries are a more concentrated source of failure than power stations and a grid.
- gjsman-1000 4y agoIf I'm getting nervous from Civil Unrest (or just a really bad snowstorm coming up in Canada), I can always grab a few 5-gallon containers, fill them up at a Gas Station, and keep them in my garage just in case, along with filling up my car. If nothing happens, I'll just use them up. If something does happen... I don't want to be the guy with the EV trying to get away when everyone else is also trying to use the EV charging stations for the same reason. If the charging stations are even functional. Plus, an electric car (or any valuable car) is prime target during civil unrest. It's fun to destroy expensive stuff. It's not fun to destroy a mid-2000s Civic.
- optymizer 4y agoI understand buying something extra just to be prepared, but to drive a Civic because someone might destroy it 5 years from now seems like optimizing for 0.001% of the time at the expense of 99.999% of your time. Plus, there's insurance.
- organsnyder 4y agoJust keep your car charged (easy to do with at-home charging) and you'll almost always have 200+ miles of range available. If you need to travel further than that to safety, you have bigger problems (and traffic will probably be jammed to the point of roads being unusable anyways).
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- ChuckNorris89 4y agoGasoline can be more easily stored and moved around than electricity. Just don't forget the fuel stabilizer and you're good.
- brandonagr2 4y agoGasoline can't be manufactured in your backyard, the solar panels on my roof produce over 100 kwh per day half the year, with battery storage my house and transportation can function without grid support.
- freemanofthewan 4y agoMost people have a gas can. or 6. Most people don't have battery storage for electricity.
- krzyk 4y agoNo people that I know have a gas can. They had, like 30 years ago, but nowadays, not a single person. I think it would be easier to find a battery storage in one of the houses that have solar panels (like 50% of them in my neighborhood) than a gas can.
- HeyLaughingBoy 4y agoThis may be an apartment dweller/SFH split kind of thing. I have multiple gasoline, diesel and oil/gas mix cans. Most people around here do, for lawnmowers, snowthrowers, chainsaws, etc. The only time I didn't have one was when I lived in apartments.
- krzyk 4y agoI live in a house, but I don't own a oil based lawnmowers, chainsaws etc. (just battery or direct electric), I don't have such a large property to justify oil ones :) My in-laws have a larger property but they also go with electric based tools, but yeah one of their neighbors does have such lawnmower (I would probably buy robot one, but...). But you are right I forgot that there are tools that do require gasoline, 30 years ago those gas cans were used for storing gasoline for use in a car or motor (when I lived in apartments).
- user3939382 4y agoAll you need to get gas in a bad situation is a 4 foot tube
- JohnFen 4y agoWhether your car is electric or not, you're relying on an external power distribution system to keep it working. Gas has to be moved to you just as much as electricity does.
- thepasswordis 4y agoIt's very easy to store 1000mi worth of fuel and take it with you. It's not very easy to store 1000mi worth of range for an EV.
- jackmott42 4y agoNow you are just doing last of us fever dreams.
- reisse 4y agoJust a year ago, that was not remotely fever dreams for a lot of people in Ukraine.
- katbyte 4y agoI offroad and camp in the backcountry a lot, often 100s of km from the nearest gas station (let alone anything with an ev charger) and then might be driving area the area hiking/climbing away from camp. Hard for an ev to beat two 20L jerry cans adding 300km of range to a tank with 450, in the winter, with 500lb of gear. I imagine one day a PHEV will replace my truck but we’re not there yet. Don’t take the collapse of society to suddenly need to grab a few jerry cans and travel a long way quick where there is no ev chargers
- thepasswordis 4y agoWell...I'm replying to the person above me. But also: I find this attitude a bit silly. The last 3 years have kindof proven the preppers right, haven't they?
- mschuster91 4y agoIf you're running a diesel vehicle, all you need is a tank in your shed (for ~1000€ [1]) and an inverter powered by your car's 12V battery to run the pump. Assuming your vehicle is barely efficient (10 l / 100km), a full tank load is enough to last you for 10.000km. Electric vehicles are a bit harder, but even there, it's possible to install enough solar panels and battery storage to last virtually infinitely. Disaster resilience is easy to achieve, if a bit expensive if you're going on a "full societal breakdown" scenario. No matter what, unless you're a grain farmer with storage, you're running out of food way before running out of transportation. [1] https://www.geratech-tankanlagen.de/tankanlagen-diesel-adblue/hoftankstelle-1000-liter-komplett/a-10302/ https://www.geratech-tankanlagen.de/tankanlagen-diesel-adblu...
- exitheone 4y agoPortable Generators are a thing and a hell of a lot cheaper than a car. Buy one and stock gasoline for an emergency and you are fine.
- Eisenstein 4y agoGasoline has a somewhat short shelf life.
- slaw 4y agoGasoline polluted with ethanol has short shelf life. Clean gasoline should last few years.
- user3939382 4y agoYou rotate it. So keep some in the garage, use it, refill the cans instead of your car.
- krzyk 4y agoHow to stock gasoline? Isn't it a fire hazard? And I won't be digging up a hole in yard and turn into a petrol station.
- Broken_Hippo 4y agoOh, but you do, even if you drive a traditional car! Most gas stations - for both diesel and gasoline - rely on electricity to pump the gas. No electic = no gas. The stations that run during outages generally have generators to do so. You might have some luck for a short time. After that, no power, no generator, no gas. The trucks won't even be able to get diesel to deliver it to you.
- somerandomqaguy 4y ago..... ? A small backup generator is all that's required for the gas pumps to work. The state of Florida now mandates gas stations have back up power on evacuation routes, a law enacted from painful lessons learned from all of the problems caused by Hurricanes Wilma and Katrina. The state of Louisiana I believe also has a similar requirement but I haven't checked. http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0500-0599/0526/Sections/0526.143.html http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Displ...
- user3939382 4y agoI mentioned in another comment, this is true, but all you really need to get gas if the gloves are off is a short tube or hose.
- BaseballPhysics 4y agoIn which case you'd be far better served with an electric car and rooftop solar. Gas supplies disappear. Electricity is needed to run pumps. But no one can cut off a home solar generation system short of bombing your house.
- coding123 4y agoI see a lot of Rivians driving around where I am at, surprisingly. I am starting to get tempted.
- electriclove 4y agoThey do seem to offer tremendous value for that price point (even though it is a high price point).
- legohead 4y agoIt's one of the least efficient EVs out there. I have an Audi E-tron, which is also one of the worst. I still save compared to gas, but I was hoping to save a lot more. To compare, the Model3 is twice as efficient as the Rivian.
- p_j_w 4y agoIf efficiency is a deal breaker for someone, they're not going to be looking at a pickup truck in the first place.
- alphabettsy 4y agoA Corolla is twice as efficient (or more) than a 4Runner but like the Model 3, it will get stuck going on a curb so it’s not really comparable.
- electrondood 4y agoThis tired trope needs to die. "Competition" has been "coming" since 2013. Good luck to them.
- philosopher1234 4y agohttps://www.topgear.com/car-news/electric/top-gears-top-20-electric-cars https://www.topgear.com/car-news/electric/top-gears-top-20-e...
- xigency 4y agoWell, you can place your bets on the market then if you’re confident we’re wrong.
- drstewart 4y agoSo what bets have YOU placed?
- xigency 4y agoI'm risk averse so I've been picking up short-term CD's at 5% interest.
- laweijfmvo 4y agoThe F-150 was already the most popular vehicle. I wouldn't expect Ford's stock to explode any time soon.
- cactusplant7374 4y agoWhy would anyone bet against the greatest promoter on earth? Doesn't make sense because the bet isn't restricted enough in scope. I bet people here would be willing to bet on number of sales in the next 10 years if that were possible.
- maxfurman 4y agoCompetition is here! Ford's electric F150 is selling quite well, and most of the other major auto brands have electric options on the market too. I haven't seen the sales figures, Tesla is probably still leading the EV segment at the moment, but they need to do something to keep up. They haven't put anything that they've announced on the road since the model 3.
- philosopher1234 4y agoI think its a company with a churn/morale problem.
- foobarian 4y agoI also feel like the fancy software features ate up a lot of resources for not much return, which makes me wonder how much cheaper EVs could get with a more basic/classic set of features (and hardware supporting them). Only need a backup camera, all the sensors can go except for backup, no need for a GPU/PC/AI ASICs on board, etc. Basically a 2014 Ford with an EV drivetrain.
- iknowstuff 4y agoTeslas have fewer chips than legacy OEMs due to better integration. They are already the most cost efficient EVs to build, and they’re making further progress as described on investor day.
- soperj 4y agoElon has proven over and over and over again to lie through his teeth. No way that I'd rely on investor day information.
- abledon 4y agoMunroe tear downs lie ?
- FireBeyond 4y agoMunroe, heavy long investor in Tesla? Who only became pro-Tesla after investing in them?
- t0mas88 4y agoThey use fewer chips due to cutting corners: 1. Their "self driving" adaptive cruise is very bad compared to other brands. Because they dropped radar and don't use proven modules like others. 2. Same for their idiotic attempt to replace well working sensors for automatic wipers with not working cameras. 3. And now this next thing on parking sensors that just don't work. Still hordes of people are stupid enough to believe Musk claiming it's all great innovation and good for the customer. While in reality things just don't work and Tesla is cutting corners. Elon Musk is a prime example of an "alternative facts" kind of liar. Keep shouting loud enough and some people start te believe you. He got very far with all his lies, but so did Bernie Madoff...
- simplezeal 4y agoI am honestly having trouble finding a good alternative in US. Want to see how have others’ experience card with alternate choices?
- Analemma_ 4y agoA friend of mine cancelled his Model 3 preorder because the waitlist was too long, got a Kia EV6 instead and is perfectly happy with it.
- jmcphers 4y agoI also tried Teslas and ultimately wound up with an EV6, which I love. It is missing some features that Teslas have, but also has some features Teslas don't, such as plentiful buttons in the cabin and the ability to charge other EVs (or power part of your house) from its battery.
- electriclove 4y agoThanks for sharing! I hope they make and sell a ton and force Tesla and others to offer similar innovations.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- gonehome 4y agoThere really aren’t any, they all have some sort of tradeoff - usually many. More expensive, worse range, worse charger network, worse software etc. I wish there was more competition in the space, it’s starting but the legacy companies wasted a decade doing nothing (other than trying to pass legislation so they could continue to do nothing).
- jackson1442 4y agoimo the only advantage tesla has remaining in its price class is the charging network (which is now open to non-teslas, albeit with a worse UX). Kia and Hyundai have some solid options. If I were in the market for a car at the moment I'd probably go with the Hyundai Ioniq 5. The software isn't quite what you get in a Tesla, but I honestly prefer just using CarPlay (wired, unfortunately, but you can get an adapter for wireless). You lose a bit of the "cool factor" with these like the weird Tesla keys, and the mobile apps aren't great (though they may have improved in the last 1.5y since I've seen them). But as a car, they function very well and have features similar to Tesla's AutoPilot - just called something like Adaptive Cruise like it should be.
- grecy 4y agoTesla delivered 422,875 vehicles in Q1 2023. Here is what the competition manged for all of 2022 GM: 39,000, Ford: 61,000, Hyundai: 175,000, Kia: 80,000 Combined, Tesla delivered more Evs in one quarter than their competition manged in a whole year, combined.
- hospitalJail 4y agoWhat about Nissan Leaf? I don't pay attention, but I know that was a huge seller a few years ago.
- trsohmers 4y agoThey have been doing less than ~5k a quarter for the past 2 years. Q3 last year was less than 1,500 sold.
- SapporoChris 4y agoUS market: Nissan sold 12,026 Leaf in 2022. In 2021, Nissan sold 14,239 Leaf. They sold 2,213 more units in year 2021 compared to 2022 with a percent loss of 15.54% YoY. https://carfigures.com/us-market-brand/nissan/leaf https://carfigures.com/us-market-brand/nissan/leaf
- paxys 4y agoTesla has had a 20 year head start. Plot these numbers on a year over year graph and it'll be clear how quickly the competition is catching up.
- justina1 4y agoI think you'd actually see the opposite. Tesla is building additional EV capacity at an absurd rate, onlining a 500k/yr capacity factory almost every year the last few years (Shanghai, Berlin, Austin) with more on the way (Mexico).
- paxys 4y agoVolkswagen is up to 572K EV sales per year despite only starting to focus on the category in 2017.
- mypgovroom 4y agoExactly the same thing you and every other FUDer has said for the last decade. Tesla does some wild stuff for sure, but they are the largest(and will remain) car company in the world for a reason.
- httpz 4y agoLargest by market cap. That's mainly due to investor hype. With that logic, you can argue Nikola was a top 10 largest car company in the world at one point (with zero vehicles delivered). Tesla is not even in top 10 in terms of revenue or number of vehicles sold.
- kube-system 4y agoTesla is the largest automaker by market cap because of speculation.
- mypgovroom 4y agoYeah speculation that's it. Not because the government is printing money left and right for EVs or something
- kube-system 4y agoTesla is not the only EV manufacturer.
- mypgovroom 4y agoNo, you don't say? They are the largest and in the best position to profit from this legislation though. The UAW didn't fight so hard to get Tesla excluded for nothing.
- bottlepalm 4y agoPE ratio of 50 seems very reasonable for a growth stock.
- MereInterest 4y ago
- httpz 4y agoEven if this comment is true, I wouldn't short TSLA. There are too many irrational TLSA investors..
- CobrastanJorji 4y agoSurely irrational investors are the #1 reason you'd want to invest the other way? At least in the longer term.
- karamanolev 4y agoMarkets can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent. - John Maynard Keynes
- httpz 4y agoAs the famous saying goes “Markets can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent”. There are many people who predicted the 2008 financial crisis but only a few of them were able to time it right make a profit.
- delecti 4y agoThe market can stay irrational longer than most people can stay solvent.
- benjamoon 4y agoTesla Model Y Grabs 49% of Denmark’s EV Market in March https://teslanorth.com/2023/04/01/tesla-model-y-sales-denmark-march/ https://teslanorth.com/2023/04/01/tesla-model-y-sales-denmar... This is happening all over Europe and it’s only one of the two insanely popular models Tesla sell. My wife has a Polestar and it’s awesome (second best electric car manufacturer in my mind), but it can’t compete with my model 3. Try a VW ID and see what you think of the software, in fact try any modern manufacturers software and compare it to Tesla. It’s always junk. The only reason the Polestar is close is because it’s native android running the show. Tesla have a ton of issues, but the iPhone had a ton of issues when it launched, but if you were shouting about how good your blackberry keyboard was you were having the wrong conversation. I don’t think the other auto companies have embraced the paradigm shift that Tesla have introduced.
- imbusy111 4y agoI don't want anything but the most basic software in my car. As long as you can plug in an Android device, it doesn't matter - it's not the core competence of an auto maker.
- idontwantthis 4y agoAnd GM has decided to force you to use their software and not plug in Android on all upcoming EVs.
- electriclove 4y agoThis is akin to the keyboard argument in the comment you are replying to.
- mattmcknight 4y agoExcept that Tesla is the keyboard. They are never going to duplicate every app on iOS and Android, so they should focus on connecting those OSes to their screens, speakers, and physical controls (like volume) rather than build something just for their hardware.
- thedangler 4y agoI'm sorry but you're wrong. Even Ford's CEO admitted they are way behind. Tesla isn't the best but they can fail quick and learn from it fast. The reason you see so much hate is probably it comes from the Short and Distort playbooks from hedge funds who want them to fail. Even this guy who has no skin in the game knows how far behind everyone else is and laughs at all you haters. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCj--iMtToRO_cGG_fpmP5XQ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCj--iMtToRO_cGG_fpmP5XQ
- FireBeyond 4y ago> The reason you see so much hate is probably it comes from the Short and Distort playbooks from hedge funds who want them to fail. This meme is tired and stale. It is possible to have a skeptical outlook for Tesla that is not connected to a short financial position. > Even this guy who has no skin in the game Okay, I see how this is going. You are kidding, right? Munroe has -repeatedly- disclosed that he has a significant financial investment in Tesla.
- justinclift 4y agoIt more sounds like overly strict bean counters have won some internal battle at Tesla, thereby ensuring cost cutting measures are winning out over everything else. Regardless of brand damage, etc. Did they have a change of CFO or similar in the last 6 months?
- electriclove 4y agoIt is definitely related to cost cutting and margins. This is what will help them survive a downturn.
- TeMPOraL 4y agoBut it makes no sense. Why parking sensors? Why not find a cheaper supplier for upholstery or remove any of the completely unnecessary and barely noticeable non-functional elements of what's still a luxury brand? Surely ultrasound ranging sensors are dirt cheap, and the reaction of the press 100% predictable, so it should've been obvious to any bean counter that this is a self-harming move.
- justinclift 4y ago> so it should've been obvious to any bean counter that this is a self-harming move. While true, the seagull types seem to exist in every profession. eg fly in, crap everywhere, then leave for the next place before they catch the blame ;)
- MuffinFlavored 4y ago> Tesla is behaving like a company which doesn't realize the competition is catching up fast. Should their market cap be $600b, higher, or lower given this statement?...
- bottlepalm 4y agoIf you believe the competition is 'catching up' it should be lower. If you believe they've been saying that for 10 years and it hasn't happened, then it should be higher.
- foobiekr 4y agoYou should consider that the other manufacturers have demonstrated absolutely no software acument at all. What should be amazing in 2023 is that the SW is total crap in the typical car. It's not that Tesla is good. Tesla's in-car SW is not good, it's just the least crap in a crapsack industry.
- babypuncher 4y agoMost other car manufacturers have the good sense to include support for CarPlay and Android Auto, so you can mostly just ignore the craptastic built-in software.
- foobiekr 4y agoAgreed. My next car will have CarPlay. It’s great.
- mkl95 4y agoIt's typical startup behaviour, but burning orders of magnitude more cash
- medler 4y agoCompetition isn’t really a thing in the short term. Every EV manufacturer is selling every car they are capable of producing for at least the next year or so. Someday I guess supply will catch up with demand and then we’ll see if Tesla can keep up.
- twblalock 4y agoAll my objections to Tesla melted away after I took one for a test drive. They outclass the competition in every way. It's not just the software, it's the driving experience. The Model 3 is a rocket ship and handles like a 911 for half the price. Plus Tesla serves customers who don't want a silly crossover -- most other brands are only making EV crossovers. If you want a smaller car you don't have very many choices, and most of them cost more (e.g. Porsche Taycan, the Audi version of the Taycan).
- Broken_Hippo 4y agoPlus Tesla serves customers who don't want a silly crossover -- most other brands are only making EV crossovers. If you want a smaller car you don't have very many choices, and most of them cost more (e.g. Porsche Taycan, the Audi version of the Taycan). This is probably a product of where you are. I see plenty of actual EVs in a lot of shapes and sizes and from what I can tell, price ranges. (Not actually in the market for a car, so I'm unsure of any sizes). Of course, I'm in Norway and there are many electric cars on the road and they've been building the infrastructure for them - and the mix of brands available and what brands are cheaper than others would vary quite a bit from, say, the US.
- jackmott42 4y agoI have autocrossed various cars competitively including a model 3 and a 911 GT3. There is nothing "Bad" about the model 3 handling, but nothing good either. It is vastly under-tired for how heavy it is, but of course you can fix that with big wheels and tires. It also has no adjustable front camber, a necessity to set up a car to handle decently. Its just got a totally normal suspension, and is atypically heavy with atypically narrow tires. Now does it set good times on certain tracks? Absolutely, because it has 500 horsepower from "idle" up to a pretty decent speed. On tight, short tracks it can power out of corners in an absurd manner. But the "handling" is really kind of bad, which can be fixed in the same way you can fix any cars handling (aftermarket coilovers, a proper alignment, and big tires)
- twblalock 4y agoI care about handling on public roads, not autocross or track racing.
- jackmott42 4y agoUntil the rest of the market has something about half as good as the SuperCharger network, they may be behaving correctly.
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago> now there are lots of good options available and it's no longer necessary to put up with this Tesla has its battery supply chain nailed down to a degree its competition can only dream of. That’s slowly changing. But they likely have another half decade of margin advantage before the majors begin to seriously bite into their volume.
- dzhiurgis 4y agoYes they are catching up, but also cost more and get you less. In NZ base ioniq5/ev6 cost slightly more, but you don’t get panoramic roof, autopilot, app, leather seats, heated seats, electric tailgate, storage. What Tesla is missing tho is v2l, buttons, carplay. Overall people here seem to like paying a little more just not to be seen driving “flashy Tesla”…