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Given China's, (and to some extent, Asia's), obsession with face, his actions do all seem pretty clueless. I wonder, could it all be part of some performance?

Given China's, (and to some extent, Asia's), obsession with face, his actions do all seem pretty clueless. I wonder, could it all be part of some performance? The fact that they let Ali "voluntarily" restructure, and save face from having it be enforced, is interesting on it's own. I'm not really sure what to make of it.

carschno 4y ago
Genuine question: is there any evidence that "Asia's obsession with face" has actual impact on daily business, or is it really just a cliché?
- KerryJones 4y ago
  Jack Ma is part of the evidence -- there are others who have said the same thing. There are many examples of less notoriety of people saying bad things about CCP and then "disappearing" (many government officials).
- throwawaymaths 4y ago
  It's only a cliche, because westerners are often just as obsessed with face, though having a foot in two cultures there are a few big places where the difference is noticable: US (and by extension NATO, doctrinally) military is very unconcerned with face in the small. For (real example) anyone on the bridge of a US ship can report to the captain of a ship that the ship is out of position (for an exercise). A buddy almost got walloped on the bridge of a ROK ship for doing that. They didn't because he was American and that's what exchanges are for. some cultures in the west tend to value bluntness over face in the small.
  - chrischen 4y ago
    Yea I remember an HN post from a US pilot trainer explaining the same culture problem in Korea in the aftermath of the Asiana airlines crash at SFO. But I see that as more of a hierarchy problem rather than saving face.
_skel 4y ago
We don't need to resort to cultural tropes like "face" to explain this. This is about power and control. The Communist party does not want any other centers of power or control to emerge which might challenge the party. Jack Ma, and the tech industry in general, was emerging as such a power. Now that problem has been taken care of.

carschno 4y ago

Genuine question: is there any evidence that "Asia's obsession with face" has actual impact on daily business, or is it really just a cliché?

KerryJones 4y ago
Jack Ma is part of the evidence -- there are others who have said the same thing. There are many examples of less notoriety of people saying bad things about CCP and then "disappearing" (many government officials).
throwawaymaths 4y ago
It's only a cliche, because westerners are often just as obsessed with face, though having a foot in two cultures there are a few big places where the difference is noticable: US (and by extension NATO, doctrinally) military is very unconcerned with face in the small. For (real example) anyone on the bridge of a US ship can report to the captain of a ship that the ship is out of position (for an exercise). A buddy almost got walloped on the bridge of a ROK ship for doing that. They didn't because he was American and that's what exchanges are for. some cultures in the west tend to value bluntness over face in the small.
- chrischen 4y ago
  Yea I remember an HN post from a US pilot trainer explaining the same culture problem in Korea in the aftermath of the Asiana airlines crash at SFO. But I see that as more of a hierarchy problem rather than saving face.

_skel 4y ago

We don't need to resort to cultural tropes like "face" to explain this. This is about power and control. The Communist party does not want any other centers of power or control to emerge which might challenge the party. Jack Ma, and the tech industry in general, was emerging as such a power. Now that problem has been taken care of.