8 ms·

> I am surprised I am getting downvoted Probably for this statement: > FWIW, macs are high quality and last a long time. and subsequently for this flamey s

> I am surprised I am getting downvoted Probably for this statement: > FWIW, macs are high quality and last a long time. and subsequently for this flamey statement: > You would think more folks on HN would be happy about long lasting products but the anti-apple bias is strong enough to override the concern of having a more sustainable product. FWIW, it seems like you got incredibly lucky. In recent years, I've been through the following MacBooks: - 2013 MB (Glorious, ran forever, needed more RAM and speed) - 2016 MBP (bad keyboard, then rapid battery expansion) - 2018 MBP (battery expansion, then logic board failure) - 2019/2020 MBP (logic board failure) - M1 MBP 13" (nothing, it's running beautifully.) IIRC, all of the above failures happened just outside of the warranty period. For personal MacBooks, I will no longer go without AppleCare+. The risk of failure and accidental damage is too great. We have an org with thousands of MBPs with similar experiences. It got bad enough that discussions were had about switching staff to Chromebooks or Windows laptops. (Chromebooks didn't meet requirements and Windows laptops are even worse for hardware and software reasons) All of these devices basically sat on a desk in a ~68F office most of the time.

dimmke 4y ago
I guess I got lucky too. Because I bought a 2012 MBP (the first generation that had the HiDPI Retina displays) and it lasted me over 6 years of daily, hard use. It was still in decent condition but my job at the time got me one of the newer ones. Of course, that one had the bad keyboard and had to be swapped. 2016-2020 the dark ages but outside of that 4 year period (that Apple has firmly reversed course on), Apple's reputation for excellent laptops is well deserved.
- smoldesu 4y ago
  The #1 thing preventing Apple from getting into S-tier is user-serviceable storage. Baking on the memory? It's frustrating and gimps the device lifespan, but arguably unavoidable with the bandwidth Apple is targeting. Without replaceable storage though, every Apple Silicon device is effectively a ticking time-bomb. These devices will all hit their TBW limit long before they're unusable, and Apple refused to anticipate this because... it side-steps their pricing scheme? The current Macbook lineup is a step in the right direction, but far from perfect. Even ignoring my hundred gripes with MacOS, I think there are clear hardware improvements they can make with future iterations. None of these improvements seem particularly profitable though, so I'm not counting on Apple adding them.
  - Retric 4y ago
    High speed internet has largely rendered local storage obsolete for most users. However, Apple’s base model is frankly silly. A solid 2TB NVME drive is only 150$, slapping the equivalent of 20$ worth of storage on a 1,500$ laptop is crazy.
  - stametseater 4y ago
    Constant backups are essential when using a computer without user-serviceable storage. That or mounting another [network] drive and doing all your work from that instead of internal storage. Otherwise you'll be without your data for hours if not days/weeks whenever something inevitably goes wrong (not even with the storage itself) and you can't simply pull the drive to continue working on another computer.
    - KptMarchewa 4y ago
      Or just not caring about any data you have locally.
    - vetinari 4y ago
      M1 won't boot without internal storage. The point of the parent comment was not about saving data from the drive, but that the devices are landfill material once they hit tbw limits on their drives, even if they were otherwise in good condition.
      - stametseater 4y ago
        Well you'll not hit TBW limits if you're using another drive anyway.
        smoldesu 4y ago
        Unless you have configured your Macbook to not use Swap, it will constantly write to the built-in drive when memory pressure is high enough.
      - ehutch79 4y ago
- olyjohn 4y ago
  Maybe you were lucky, maybe I was unlucky... Even before 2016-2020, I had 3 MacBooks that just straight up crapped out on me. Two were the nvidia graphics chips that would come desoldered or something. Another one just died one day for no reason. I am not trying to say that they are bad laptop, but on average, I think they are just as prone to dying as any other laptop. I don't think they are particularly "excellent." I've worked on hundreds of laptops, and I can't really say one brand does any better than the rest. Some make expensive laptops that are total garbage, some make cheap laptops that are really good. Assuming the laptop is spec'd how you need it, the quality is going to come down to your luck, and that's about all.
sleepybrett 4y ago
I also had a 2016 with a bad keyboard, they replaced it for free because it was a well known terrible keyboard and it probably didn't hurt that it was still under applecare. I continued to use that laptop into 2019, it did need a battery replacement (it got puffy, it happens) that I paid for out of pocket. Then I gave that laptop to a friend and she used it until she finally thought it was too slow/big (it was a 15") and bought a used air. A failure != a brand new laptop, especially with applecare. IMO chromebooks are worse but cheaper so you feel better just tossing them out. Windows laptops are worse .. so your position is Apple sux bucause the laptops fai sometimes. But window laptops fail more ... so ... so what? Hardware fails sometimes, Apple has great support and actually own up to defective products. Sure I'm a little miffed that I can't generally fix them myself (and especially miffed that they solder storage onto a mainboard and don't use something like m.2). But every last apple laptop i've owned that I have replaced for speed reasons has gone to someone else who's used it for years after i've been done with it. (Well save one that took an unfortunate tumble into a lake.. no saving that one, RIP last macbook I ever owned with an optical drive)
- jwandborg 4y ago
  > Apple has great support. Apple does not have support good enough for professionals, my colleagues are suffering with defective MacBooks until they can justify a full replacement, because Apple repairs cost a lot of time, while Lenovo sends a repairperson with tools and replacement parts to my office.
  - lowbloodsugar 4y ago
    I was on business in UK, keyboard broke, and Dell showed up next day and the tech had a US keyboard in his van.
    - stametseater 4y ago
      My Dell XPS shit itself, unbootable while blinking memory error diagnostic codes, a day before I had to make a flight. Dell scheduled service for me the next day when I was meant to be on my flight, so I called them to explain and they sent a tech to my home 3 hours later that afternoon. On the other hand, an Apple store once took over 3 weeks to order a replacement battery for my macbook air. I never even received an explanation for this incredible incompetence. And when I finally got the battery, the apple store employee made sure to add insult to injury by criticizing my android phone... It's night and day. My take is that Dell has something to prove while Apple rests on their laurels.
lotsofpulp 4y ago
The MacBook Air has been solid since inception, and that machine is good enough for the vast majority of people.
- hajile 4y ago
  It kills me that I can only get ONE external monitor. It would otherwise be perfect.
  - runjake 4y ago
    Check out the DisplayLink stuff. I think it works pretty well. I even devote one DisplayLink screen to security cameras (4-6 640x480 cameras at 15fps). I also use that screen to play YouTube videos, if I'm following along with something It handles it just fine at 8-10% CPU usage on an M1.
  - sovnade 4y ago
    There are adapters that let you use multiple and bypass that limit. Kensington has a few. This one is pricier but also doubles as a docking station/100w PD: https://www.kensington.com/p/products/device-docking-connectivity-products/laptop-docks-usb-accessories/sd4780p-usb-c-usb-a-10gbps-dual-4k-hybrid-docking-station-w100w-pd-dp-hdmi-windowsmacoschr/ https://www.kensington.com/p/products/device-docking-connect... They have some cheaper, more basic models too. edit: for the record I think this limit is stupid and the biggest flaw of the Air. You're right that other than that, it's a damn near perfect daily driver.
    - chris_wot 4y ago
      What are the cheaper options? We use a lot of MacBook Air M2s at work, would really like a cheaper solution!
    - goosedragons 4y ago
      Which comes with drawbacks. Video is sent out compressed over USB protocol which requires CPU cycles, more resolution + moving images = more CPU grunt required. Plus there is the risk some update will break the driver making your dock useless.
jedberg 4y ago
> All of these devices basically sat on a desk in a ~68F office most of the time. That's the problem. You need to discharge the battery once in a while or it builds up gas and expands. I had a 2015 that was perfect until I stopped going anywhere in March 2020. So I basically didn't unplug it for a year, and then the battery got explodey. So now that I still work at home, I make sure to unplug my laptop once in a while just to drain it down a bit. Edit: Not sure why I'm getting downvoted here. You still need to unplug your older Macs that don't have the software and firmware updates that do this automatically now. I'm simply pointing out why OP had battery problems.
- cesarb 4y ago
  > So now that I still work at home, I make sure to unplug my laptop once in a while just to drain it down a bit. That's still a defect; the laptop battery management should do that for you. As an example, the Dell laptops I'm used to automatically drain the battery to ~95% when plugged in all the time (it appears to be at 100% while on AC, but when you unplug it you can see the true charge).
  - Rimintil 4y ago
    Macs drain to 80% when plugged in all the time.
  - officeplant 4y ago
    Yeah it took them forever but Apple laptops finally do this as well (holding the charge at 80% instead)
moralestapia 4y ago
>FWIW, macs are high quality and last a long time. They are, though. I'm on my 4th MacBook and all have lasted me at least 5 years. The reason I upgrade them is to get more speed/specs, not because they stopped working, I even sold them and made back some small $$. PS The touchbar thing was nonsense, I didn't jump on that, as well as other gimmicks. Still the MBP is a solid option.
- zamalek 4y ago
  That's an anecdote. The GP comment indicated that they have seen this across an org, meaning more than a single sample.
  - moralestapia 4y ago
    The plural of anecdote is not data. I use my MBP 6-8 hours every. single. day. I plug two monitors to it and leave everything on 24/7 (I only dim the screen but never close it). I'm sure I put way more use into them than the average user. I once went close to two years without a restart. No other laptop I've owned has been as reliable as the MBPs. ... but yes this is still an anecdote.
    - zamalek 4y ago
      > The plural of anecdote is not data. Of course not. An anecdote is bad data. A diverse sample is good data.
- arepublicadoceu 4y ago
  Is 5 years any kind of achievement? I’m currently running a generic hp laptop from 2012(?). Not a single issue. Just had to insert one more 8gb ram, to keep chrome happy, and change the ssd once. Everything else still works fine.
smith7018 4y ago
Seems far more likely that you've been incredibly unlucky. I've had many Macs and have never had battery expansion or logic board failures. I know many people that still use their 2013-era machines and they're still chugging along.
- scns 4y ago
  Parent: big org with many machines You: sample size = 1 Maybe parents opinion is coloured negatively by hearing about failing machines of colleagues. They even said that Windows machines were worse. Maybe you have been lucky. Zero snark intended.
  - rbanffy 4y ago
    I can add a little bit of anecdata as well. My wife has been using Macs for a long time now while I use both Macs and Dells with Linux and, occasionally, a Lenovo or an HP. We have gone through at least 10 Macs in total and none of them failed in less than 8 years. One got a puffy battery (replaced in warranty), one got chipped when it fell from the desk (a white MacBook, Apple replaced the bottom, keyboard, and palm rest for free, even though the machine was out of warranty, but was listed in a recall for the palm rest). Some HDs died and some flash got upgraded. While it's not a daily driver, even the white MacBook is still going strong (as is the Bondi Blue iMac, the eMac, and the dual G5, none of which get much uptime these days, but boot up just fine every month or so). Both our current Macs (a 13" Pro and an i5 Mini) are from 2014 and will be replaced by M2 ones because they can't get the newest OS (while I can get away with it, my wife won't for long due to professional compliance rules). No consumer-grade PC laptop or desktop of mine lasted that long in active use (some x86 servers did, as all the Sun and IBM PPC/POWER stuff) without extensive overhauling. Even my Thinkpads got cracks after five years. The thing that worries me the most with the newer Macs is the flash storage - when it dies, I don't expect them to be repairable. I hope Apple includes M.2 slots in the future, even if the laptops need to be bulkier because of that.
- LanceH 4y ago
  The thing is, they go from "works great" to "totally broken" with virtually no in between, and no ability of the owner to do anything about it.

dimmke 4y ago

I guess I got lucky too. Because I bought a 2012 MBP (the first generation that had the HiDPI Retina displays) and it lasted me over 6 years of daily, hard use. It was still in decent condition but my job at the time got me one of the newer ones. Of course, that one had the bad keyboard and had to be swapped. 2016-2020 the dark ages but outside of that 4 year period (that Apple has firmly reversed course on), Apple's reputation for excellent laptops is well deserved.

smoldesu 4y ago
The #1 thing preventing Apple from getting into S-tier is user-serviceable storage. Baking on the memory? It's frustrating and gimps the device lifespan, but arguably unavoidable with the bandwidth Apple is targeting. Without replaceable storage though, every Apple Silicon device is effectively a ticking time-bomb. These devices will all hit their TBW limit long before they're unusable, and Apple refused to anticipate this because... it side-steps their pricing scheme? The current Macbook lineup is a step in the right direction, but far from perfect. Even ignoring my hundred gripes with MacOS, I think there are clear hardware improvements they can make with future iterations. None of these improvements seem particularly profitable though, so I'm not counting on Apple adding them.
- Retric 4y ago
  High speed internet has largely rendered local storage obsolete for most users. However, Apple’s base model is frankly silly. A solid 2TB NVME drive is only 150$, slapping the equivalent of 20$ worth of storage on a 1,500$ laptop is crazy.
- stametseater 4y ago
  Constant backups are essential when using a computer without user-serviceable storage. That or mounting another [network] drive and doing all your work from that instead of internal storage. Otherwise you'll be without your data for hours if not days/weeks whenever something inevitably goes wrong (not even with the storage itself) and you can't simply pull the drive to continue working on another computer.
  - KptMarchewa 4y ago
    Or just not caring about any data you have locally.
  - vetinari 4y ago
    M1 won't boot without internal storage. The point of the parent comment was not about saving data from the drive, but that the devices are landfill material once they hit tbw limits on their drives, even if they were otherwise in good condition.
    - stametseater 4y ago
      Well you'll not hit TBW limits if you're using another drive anyway.
      - smoldesu 4y ago
        Unless you have configured your Macbook to not use Swap, it will constantly write to the built-in drive when memory pressure is high enough.
    - ehutch79 4y ago
olyjohn 4y ago
Maybe you were lucky, maybe I was unlucky... Even before 2016-2020, I had 3 MacBooks that just straight up crapped out on me. Two were the nvidia graphics chips that would come desoldered or something. Another one just died one day for no reason. I am not trying to say that they are bad laptop, but on average, I think they are just as prone to dying as any other laptop. I don't think they are particularly "excellent." I've worked on hundreds of laptops, and I can't really say one brand does any better than the rest. Some make expensive laptops that are total garbage, some make cheap laptops that are really good. Assuming the laptop is spec'd how you need it, the quality is going to come down to your luck, and that's about all.

sleepybrett 4y ago

I also had a 2016 with a bad keyboard, they replaced it for free because it was a well known terrible keyboard and it probably didn't hurt that it was still under applecare. I continued to use that laptop into 2019, it did need a battery replacement (it got puffy, it happens) that I paid for out of pocket. Then I gave that laptop to a friend and she used it until she finally thought it was too slow/big (it was a 15") and bought a used air. A failure != a brand new laptop, especially with applecare. IMO chromebooks are worse but cheaper so you feel better just tossing them out. Windows laptops are worse .. so your position is Apple sux bucause the laptops fai sometimes. But window laptops fail more ... so ... so what? Hardware fails sometimes, Apple has great support and actually own up to defective products. Sure I'm a little miffed that I can't generally fix them myself (and especially miffed that they solder storage onto a mainboard and don't use something like m.2). But every last apple laptop i've owned that I have replaced for speed reasons has gone to someone else who's used it for years after i've been done with it. (Well save one that took an unfortunate tumble into a lake.. no saving that one, RIP last macbook I ever owned with an optical drive)

jwandborg 4y ago
> Apple has great support. Apple does not have support good enough for professionals, my colleagues are suffering with defective MacBooks until they can justify a full replacement, because Apple repairs cost a lot of time, while Lenovo sends a repairperson with tools and replacement parts to my office.
- lowbloodsugar 4y ago
  I was on business in UK, keyboard broke, and Dell showed up next day and the tech had a US keyboard in his van.
  - stametseater 4y ago
    My Dell XPS shit itself, unbootable while blinking memory error diagnostic codes, a day before I had to make a flight. Dell scheduled service for me the next day when I was meant to be on my flight, so I called them to explain and they sent a tech to my home 3 hours later that afternoon. On the other hand, an Apple store once took over 3 weeks to order a replacement battery for my macbook air. I never even received an explanation for this incredible incompetence. And when I finally got the battery, the apple store employee made sure to add insult to injury by criticizing my android phone... It's night and day. My take is that Dell has something to prove while Apple rests on their laurels.

lotsofpulp 4y ago

The MacBook Air has been solid since inception, and that machine is good enough for the vast majority of people.

hajile 4y ago
It kills me that I can only get ONE external monitor. It would otherwise be perfect.
- runjake 4y ago
  Check out the DisplayLink stuff. I think it works pretty well. I even devote one DisplayLink screen to security cameras (4-6 640x480 cameras at 15fps). I also use that screen to play YouTube videos, if I'm following along with something It handles it just fine at 8-10% CPU usage on an M1.
- sovnade 4y ago
  There are adapters that let you use multiple and bypass that limit. Kensington has a few. This one is pricier but also doubles as a docking station/100w PD: https://www.kensington.com/p/products/device-docking-connectivity-products/laptop-docks-usb-accessories/sd4780p-usb-c-usb-a-10gbps-dual-4k-hybrid-docking-station-w100w-pd-dp-hdmi-windowsmacoschr/ https://www.kensington.com/p/products/device-docking-connect... They have some cheaper, more basic models too. edit: for the record I think this limit is stupid and the biggest flaw of the Air. You're right that other than that, it's a damn near perfect daily driver.
  - chris_wot 4y ago
    What are the cheaper options? We use a lot of MacBook Air M2s at work, would really like a cheaper solution!
  - goosedragons 4y ago
    Which comes with drawbacks. Video is sent out compressed over USB protocol which requires CPU cycles, more resolution + moving images = more CPU grunt required. Plus there is the risk some update will break the driver making your dock useless.

jedberg 4y ago

> All of these devices basically sat on a desk in a ~68F office most of the time. That's the problem. You need to discharge the battery once in a while or it builds up gas and expands. I had a 2015 that was perfect until I stopped going anywhere in March 2020. So I basically didn't unplug it for a year, and then the battery got explodey. So now that I still work at home, I make sure to unplug my laptop once in a while just to drain it down a bit. Edit: Not sure why I'm getting downvoted here. You still need to unplug your older Macs that don't have the software and firmware updates that do this automatically now. I'm simply pointing out why OP had battery problems.

cesarb 4y ago
> So now that I still work at home, I make sure to unplug my laptop once in a while just to drain it down a bit. That's still a defect; the laptop battery management should do that for you. As an example, the Dell laptops I'm used to automatically drain the battery to ~95% when plugged in all the time (it appears to be at 100% while on AC, but when you unplug it you can see the true charge).
- Rimintil 4y ago
  Macs drain to 80% when plugged in all the time.
- officeplant 4y ago
  Yeah it took them forever but Apple laptops finally do this as well (holding the charge at 80% instead)

moralestapia 4y ago

>FWIW, macs are high quality and last a long time. They are, though. I'm on my 4th MacBook and all have lasted me at least 5 years. The reason I upgrade them is to get more speed/specs, not because they stopped working, I even sold them and made back some small $$. PS The touchbar thing was nonsense, I didn't jump on that, as well as other gimmicks. Still the MBP is a solid option.

zamalek 4y ago
That's an anecdote. The GP comment indicated that they have seen this across an org, meaning more than a single sample.
- moralestapia 4y ago
  The plural of anecdote is not data. I use my MBP 6-8 hours every. single. day. I plug two monitors to it and leave everything on 24/7 (I only dim the screen but never close it). I'm sure I put way more use into them than the average user. I once went close to two years without a restart. No other laptop I've owned has been as reliable as the MBPs. ... but yes this is still an anecdote.
  - zamalek 4y ago
    > The plural of anecdote is not data. Of course not. An anecdote is bad data. A diverse sample is good data.
arepublicadoceu 4y ago
Is 5 years any kind of achievement? I’m currently running a generic hp laptop from 2012(?). Not a single issue. Just had to insert one more 8gb ram, to keep chrome happy, and change the ssd once. Everything else still works fine.

smith7018 4y ago

Seems far more likely that you've been incredibly unlucky. I've had many Macs and have never had battery expansion or logic board failures. I know many people that still use their 2013-era machines and they're still chugging along.

scns 4y ago
Parent: big org with many machines You: sample size = 1 Maybe parents opinion is coloured negatively by hearing about failing machines of colleagues. They even said that Windows machines were worse. Maybe you have been lucky. Zero snark intended.
- rbanffy 4y ago
  I can add a little bit of anecdata as well. My wife has been using Macs for a long time now while I use both Macs and Dells with Linux and, occasionally, a Lenovo or an HP. We have gone through at least 10 Macs in total and none of them failed in less than 8 years. One got a puffy battery (replaced in warranty), one got chipped when it fell from the desk (a white MacBook, Apple replaced the bottom, keyboard, and palm rest for free, even though the machine was out of warranty, but was listed in a recall for the palm rest). Some HDs died and some flash got upgraded. While it's not a daily driver, even the white MacBook is still going strong (as is the Bondi Blue iMac, the eMac, and the dual G5, none of which get much uptime these days, but boot up just fine every month or so). Both our current Macs (a 13" Pro and an i5 Mini) are from 2014 and will be replaced by M2 ones because they can't get the newest OS (while I can get away with it, my wife won't for long due to professional compliance rules). No consumer-grade PC laptop or desktop of mine lasted that long in active use (some x86 servers did, as all the Sun and IBM PPC/POWER stuff) without extensive overhauling. Even my Thinkpads got cracks after five years. The thing that worries me the most with the newer Macs is the flash storage - when it dies, I don't expect them to be repairable. I hope Apple includes M.2 slots in the future, even if the laptops need to be bulkier because of that.
LanceH 4y ago
The thing is, they go from "works great" to "totally broken" with virtually no in between, and no ability of the owner to do anything about it.