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This is what I often hear on Russian TV. Their narrative is that the war was started bu Ukraine and NATO and Russia is just defending itself. It would be just r

This is what I often hear on Russian TV. Their narrative is that the war was started bu Ukraine and NATO and Russia is just defending itself. It would be just ridiculous, the problem is I know some people who actually believe it.

medo-bear 4y ago
in 2008 nato said that ukraine will become part of nato. in 2014 the us supported an overthrow of a democraticaly elected ukranian government. i wonder what makes people suspicious
- hdjjhhvvhga 4y ago
  This makes no sense, the opposite happened: in 2008 NATO refused to take Ukraine in. And a certain lady seems still proud of it.[0] https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20220404-merkel-defends-2008-decision-to-block-ukraine-from-nato https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20220404-merkel-defend...
- mcv 4y ago
  It was the people of Ukraine who overthrew him because he broke his election promise and moved to make Ukraine a vassal of Russia. That is absolutely the last thing the people of Ukraine want, so they had no choice but to overthrow him. I don't think the US had anything to do with it. The only reason NATO says that some day Ukraine can become a member, is because Ukraine keeps asking about it. Constantly. They desperately want to join NATO, and while they don't and didn't meet NATO's criteria, it's not impossible that some day they will, and then they can join. And considering the consequences of not being in NATO, I think it's clear that Ukraine is absolutely justified in wanting to join NATO. Things would look very different if they had indeed joined in 2008.
  - medo-bear 4y ago
    you seem to be pretty keen to excuse anything nato does. i think nato purpousefully did a series of things to piss russia off and ukranian people are suffering as a result, being stuck between two imperialism. also are you aware that in 2008 the vast majority of ukranian population opposed joining nato. had ukraine joined then the war would have really been over in three days, i think
    - mcv 4y ago
      I'm not excusing NATO, I'm just explaining what happened. Putin fanboys love to pretend that NATO is aggressively expansionist, but it's not. Most of eastern Europe begged to join NATO, to the point that Poland practically blackmailed Clinton into letting them join (which Clinton originally wasn't a fan of). NATO extended its mutual defense to these countries. The only reason why that should piss off Russia is if Russia had plans to conquer those countries. Turns out they do. But that's not NATO's fault. Don't try to shift the blame to NATO here; this war is entirely, for the full 100%, Putin's fault.
      - medo-bear 4y ago
        you obvioisly drank the nato coolaid but please tell me whats wrong with my understanding. here goes 1990. nato makes the not one inch eastward promise 1999. in disregard for international law, nato bombs russia ally yugoslavia and takes over its southern teritory 1999. nato expands into poland and several other ex warsaw countries 2004. nato expands into ex-ussr, taking baltic states as members 2008. april. nato said it will take in georgia and ukraine 2008. may. us and majority of nato countries recognize the unilateral declaration of independence by kosovo, in disregard to previously signed un agreements, and in disregard to international law forbidding unilateral secessions 2008. august. georgia tries to retake control over autonomous ethnic-minority regions. russia stops this. georgia looses any chance of becoming part of nato 2010. ukraine government abandons plans to join nato 2014. people from west ukraine are driven by busses into kiev to overthrow an elected government. us publically supports the coup. elected president flees to russia. the goverent is overthrown. east ukraine opposes the overthrow and begins to rebel against the new government. 2014. crimea unilateraly seceeds from ukraine, citing the kosovo precedent. simultaneously it becomes part of russia 2014. civil war accross eastern ukraine, centering around donbas 2014. minsk agreements signed 2016-2019 nato suffers from being perceived as irrelevant. 2018. nato requests substantial funding to improve its information campaign. huge effort to rewrite the history of 'not an inch eastward' promise 2022. january. ukranian government publically states it has no intension of fulfilling minsk agreements 2022. february. russia invades ukraine to me this timeline of events strongly suggests that ukraine and its people are a mere chess piece in US imperial ambissions

medo-bear 4y ago

in 2008 nato said that ukraine will become part of nato. in 2014 the us supported an overthrow of a democraticaly elected ukranian government. i wonder what makes people suspicious

hdjjhhvvhga 4y ago
This makes no sense, the opposite happened: in 2008 NATO refused to take Ukraine in. And a certain lady seems still proud of it.[0] https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20220404-merkel-defends-2008-decision-to-block-ukraine-from-nato https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20220404-merkel-defend...
mcv 4y ago
It was the people of Ukraine who overthrew him because he broke his election promise and moved to make Ukraine a vassal of Russia. That is absolutely the last thing the people of Ukraine want, so they had no choice but to overthrow him. I don't think the US had anything to do with it. The only reason NATO says that some day Ukraine can become a member, is because Ukraine keeps asking about it. Constantly. They desperately want to join NATO, and while they don't and didn't meet NATO's criteria, it's not impossible that some day they will, and then they can join. And considering the consequences of not being in NATO, I think it's clear that Ukraine is absolutely justified in wanting to join NATO. Things would look very different if they had indeed joined in 2008.
- medo-bear 4y ago
  you seem to be pretty keen to excuse anything nato does. i think nato purpousefully did a series of things to piss russia off and ukranian people are suffering as a result, being stuck between two imperialism. also are you aware that in 2008 the vast majority of ukranian population opposed joining nato. had ukraine joined then the war would have really been over in three days, i think
  - mcv 4y ago
    I'm not excusing NATO, I'm just explaining what happened. Putin fanboys love to pretend that NATO is aggressively expansionist, but it's not. Most of eastern Europe begged to join NATO, to the point that Poland practically blackmailed Clinton into letting them join (which Clinton originally wasn't a fan of). NATO extended its mutual defense to these countries. The only reason why that should piss off Russia is if Russia had plans to conquer those countries. Turns out they do. But that's not NATO's fault. Don't try to shift the blame to NATO here; this war is entirely, for the full 100%, Putin's fault.
    - medo-bear 4y ago
      you obvioisly drank the nato coolaid but please tell me whats wrong with my understanding. here goes 1990. nato makes the not one inch eastward promise 1999. in disregard for international law, nato bombs russia ally yugoslavia and takes over its southern teritory 1999. nato expands into poland and several other ex warsaw countries 2004. nato expands into ex-ussr, taking baltic states as members 2008. april. nato said it will take in georgia and ukraine 2008. may. us and majority of nato countries recognize the unilateral declaration of independence by kosovo, in disregard to previously signed un agreements, and in disregard to international law forbidding unilateral secessions 2008. august. georgia tries to retake control over autonomous ethnic-minority regions. russia stops this. georgia looses any chance of becoming part of nato 2010. ukraine government abandons plans to join nato 2014. people from west ukraine are driven by busses into kiev to overthrow an elected government. us publically supports the coup. elected president flees to russia. the goverent is overthrown. east ukraine opposes the overthrow and begins to rebel against the new government. 2014. crimea unilateraly seceeds from ukraine, citing the kosovo precedent. simultaneously it becomes part of russia 2014. civil war accross eastern ukraine, centering around donbas 2014. minsk agreements signed 2016-2019 nato suffers from being perceived as irrelevant. 2018. nato requests substantial funding to improve its information campaign. huge effort to rewrite the history of 'not an inch eastward' promise 2022. january. ukranian government publically states it has no intension of fulfilling minsk agreements 2022. february. russia invades ukraine to me this timeline of events strongly suggests that ukraine and its people are a mere chess piece in US imperial ambissions