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> Access to free copies of things someone else created and sells is not a physical law either. Well, this is the thing, it is pretty much a physical law. Infor

by hxa7241 15y ago

> Access to free copies of things someone else created and sells is not a physical law either. Well, this is the thing, it is pretty much a physical law. Information is nonrival: it is infinitely copyable and anyone can use it without reducing access to anyone else. The effort and work to produce information is a scarcity, but once the information is expressed and public it is an abundance. The whole of the ethics and economics hinges upon this basic physical/logical structure. This is the fundamental fact of the matter, and if it is followed through rationally, all of the normally assumed ethics of copyright unravels. Paying people for work done to create makes sense. It makes an 'economic' structure that mirrors the basic physical constraints. And it is justified according to its 'economic' effects. You give something up, you get something in return. The individual transaction is fair and square, and the global outcome is a gain from being able to 'move' things around. None of that much holds for paying for copies. The transaction is not fair and square, it is an unwarranted and unjust restriction of personal freedom of those using the information. And as for the global gain, it seems rather lacking grounds of actual evidence. > The same holds true for everything, even for murder. No, there is something of a difference. Murder is outlawed not arbitrarily, but because it is something we do not, in a very basic way, want. It has a grounding in the physical facts of what the act does, and in the physical facts of our reaction to it (as a victim). That physicality gives it an unparalleled strength as something we all agree on. Copyright has no such physical grounding. Would murder be just as wrong if it could be done without actually killing anyone? You do the same things, but the actual effect is not there? -- perhaps imagine it as a video-game. It is a very different thing. And this is like copying: on the fundamental level it is 'stealing' without the stealing (i.e. not really stealing at all) -- because the basic relation involved is abstract. Etc.

batista 15y ago
Well, this is the thing, it is pretty much a physical law. Information is nonrival: it is infinitely copyable and anyone can use it without reducing access to anyone else. The effort and work to produce information is a scarcity, but once the information is expressed and public it is an abundance. The problem is that this "scarcity" (to produce information) wants to be compensated too. And it's not only "scarcity", it's also costly to produce information. The fact that you can make 1 billion copies of Adobe Photoshop for free, for example, does not mean Adobe Photoshop itself costs nothing. It costs something like several tens of millions to make in programmer's salaries. Those paying those millions should get to dictate how you pay for it, like the guy that makes a chair gets to dictate how you pay for his chair. You seem to think that the scarcity of infomation production means nothing at all, when you say e.g.: Paying people for work done to create makes sense. It makes an 'economic' structure that mirrors the basic physical constraints. And it is justified according to its 'economic' effects. You give something up, you get something in return. When you buy Photoshop, it's not just bytes downloaded to your PC you get, which cost nearly nothing (= your ISP bill), you ALSO get a slice of the paid, hard, work of hundreds of people in return. Why are we confusing technological feasibility (free copies are feasible) what what ought to be done (compensate the creator or not)? A crazy idea to directly make the software sale more akin to a specific item sale (a chair): The software maker sets an arbitrary total aggregate expected sale price P and a selling goal (say, X units). Anyone buying before X units are sold pays P/X. For anyone buying after it, the price falls P/X+ (and the first buyers are also given their difference back, either directly or in "store credit"). In the end, if they sell a billion copies, people get the program for say a dollar, but it's OK, because the company is compensated. Actually, this makes popular items essentially free or dirt cheap in the end. For this to work, we need a marketplace like the Mac App Store, so those transactions and record-keeping can be automated. This restricts the artificially huge profits made by controlling the price, and puts a set price to a free copyable item, like a tangible item has, that reflects the work that went into it. It also keeps the risk of the original sale, i.e if the sell < X, they have a loss. None of that much holds for paying for copies. The transaction is not fair and square, it is an unwarranted and unjust restriction of personal freedom of those using the information. And as for the global gain, it seems rather lacking grounds of actual evidence. Well, the global IP industry, sales of software, music, books, magazines, etc, is on the level of trillions of dollars. It would be almost zero with totally free copying. So, at the economic level, there is some support for "global gain". And it's not like the culture would be poorer if less Metallica and Lady Gaga albums where freely torrented (yes, I'm a snob like that ;-).

by hxa7241 15y ago

batista 15y ago

Well, this is the thing, it is pretty much a physical law. Information is nonrival: it is infinitely copyable and anyone can use it without reducing access to anyone else. The effort and work to produce information is a scarcity, but once the information is expressed and public it is an abundance. The problem is that this "scarcity" (to produce information) wants to be compensated too. And it's not only "scarcity", it's also costly to produce information. The fact that you can make 1 billion copies of Adobe Photoshop for free, for example, does not mean Adobe Photoshop itself costs nothing. It costs something like several tens of millions to make in programmer's salaries. Those paying those millions should get to dictate how you pay for it, like the guy that makes a chair gets to dictate how you pay for his chair. You seem to think that the scarcity of infomation production means nothing at all, when you say e.g.: Paying people for work done to create makes sense. It makes an 'economic' structure that mirrors the basic physical constraints. And it is justified according to its 'economic' effects. You give something up, you get something in return. When you buy Photoshop, it's not just bytes downloaded to your PC you get, which cost nearly nothing (= your ISP bill), you ALSO get a slice of the paid, hard, work of hundreds of people in return. Why are we confusing technological feasibility (free copies are feasible) what what ought to be done (compensate the creator or not)? A crazy idea to directly make the software sale more akin to a specific item sale (a chair): The software maker sets an arbitrary total aggregate expected sale price P and a selling goal (say, X units). Anyone buying before X units are sold pays P/X. For anyone buying after it, the price falls P/X+ (and the first buyers are also given their difference back, either directly or in "store credit"). In the end, if they sell a billion copies, people get the program for say a dollar, but it's OK, because the company is compensated. Actually, this makes popular items essentially free or dirt cheap in the end. For this to work, we need a marketplace like the Mac App Store, so those transactions and record-keeping can be automated. This restricts the artificially huge profits made by controlling the price, and puts a set price to a free copyable item, like a tangible item has, that reflects the work that went into it. It also keeps the risk of the original sale, i.e if the sell < X, they have a loss. None of that much holds for paying for copies. The transaction is not fair and square, it is an unwarranted and unjust restriction of personal freedom of those using the information. And as for the global gain, it seems rather lacking grounds of actual evidence. Well, the global IP industry, sales of software, music, books, magazines, etc, is on the level of trillions of dollars. It would be almost zero with totally free copying. So, at the economic level, there is some support for "global gain". And it's not like the culture would be poorer if less Metallica and Lady Gaga albums where freely torrented (yes, I'm a snob like that ;-).