4 ms·

did you ever stop to think that maybe if they bought a $1200 windows machine it would have lasted 4 years. also macs were very early to hop on the ssd train an

did you ever stop to think that maybe if they bought a $1200 windows machine it would have lasted 4 years. also macs were very early to hop on the ssd train and that was an insane advantage over most windows machines. I think that gap has closed substantially at this point.

joshstrange 4y ago
It might have lasted 4 years, but you'll note I said I knew people using them up to 10 years. In fact my 2014 MBP is still in service, a friend of mine uses it. I had a $1k+ Windows laptop that was a few years old in 2007-2009 and I was thoroughly unimpressed in it's build quality and how crappy/slow it was after 2 years. This was all pre-ssd even on macs (or at least the macs I was buying). I have no doubt that Windows laptop build quality has improved in the last decade, in no small part to chasing after Apple, but at this point I can't imagine going back to Windows so I'll never really know.
- smoldesu 4y ago
  There are also laptops that went the opposite direction from Apple, yet they keep on trucking. Old Thinkpads, Panasonic Toughbooks and HP Elitebooks are perfectly usable today, arguably moreso than older Macs. Toss Linux on it, and you'll have longer first-party support than any Macbook shipped in the last decade. If anything, the repairability and upgradability that prevented old Macs from being e-waste is gone now. It's hard to imagine Apple pushing the envelope on reusability or device longevity in their current era.
bmelton 4y ago
> maybe if they bought a $1200 windows machine it would have lasted 4 years Maybe it's different now (I haven't used Windows in decades, so I don't know) but I will say that it never felt that way to me. Perhaps because Apple controls the OS and the hardware, and has the ability to either spend extra time optimizing for older known hardware that falls within a support window or to delay a feature that would be problematic for older-but-supported hardware, but my lived experience with Apple hardware is that I get a lot more practical longevity out of it without having to work to squeeze every last drop of performance out of it. Yes, I can always take a $1200 Windows machine and put XFCE or Xubuntu or Mate on it and it'll extend its life considerably, but as someone who has always tried to extend the life of my components as long as possible (the server at my feet is an Athlon FX) -- it's always just felt easier on Apple hardware. It's even easier still with non-Windows PC operating systems, but ... has Windows gotten better on this regard or is that longevity still bolstered by migrating away from Windows?
- goosedragons 4y ago
  From a software support perspective macOS is the worst. They don't tell you how long an OS/machine will be supported for they just cut off support whenever they feel like it. So some machines will get 5 years, some 8, it's a roll of the dice. They sort of update N-2 versions but they also don't bring back every bug fix so... I don't think they spend any real time optimizing for old hardware, for example APFS is just a turd on HDD systems and yet they forced everyone on it and worse yet kept selling HDD iMacs on the low end (which really wasn't that low). Meanwhile MS announces in advance what the support window will be. With Windows 10 there was barely any difference in requirements from Windows 8 so pretty much everything that wasn't a bottom tier netbook or tablet from 2010 still works fine and is supported until 2025. Meanwhile the 2013 Mac Pro which was an expensive beast and sold until late 2019 won't even get some security updates in 2025. Linux and the BSDs also announce ahead of time the support period and there's a plethora of options for aging hardware.
  - kyleplum 4y ago
    It seems dishonest to leave out Windows 11 when talking about how MS is for announcing in advance what support will be. They did not give anywhere near proper notice about the TPM/UEFI/Secureboot requirement ahead of time.
    - Rimintil 4y ago
      > They did not give anywhere near proper notice about the TPM/UEFI/Secureboot requirement ahead of time. Nearly all machines, DIY included, would have met these requirements. Intel PTT has been built into their processors since 2013. AMD for at least a few years.
- adastra22 4y ago
  From a software compatibility perspective, nothing beats Windows. Your windows laptop will continue to run flawlessly until the hardware stops working (although you may have to do a clean reinstall from time to time). Microsoft takes software compatibility very seriously. Hardware as high quality as Apple is harder to come by though, and generally commands the same price premium.
bombcar 4y ago
The problem is finding the $1200 windows machine that feels valuable and worth it after four years; it's hard to find one that has the "build quality" if you will. Maybe people with the Surface are pleased with it still, that looked pretty nice.
- SoftTalker 4y ago
  I mean, any "pro" grade Dell or Lenovo laptop will last 10 years if it's not dropped or otherwise abused too badly. I've had several. I don't run Windows on them, so don't know how that experience would be. But hardware-wise they hold up. They aren't quite as light and elegant as a Mac but that doesn't matter to me.
  - bscphil 4y ago
    Even commodity Dells like the Inspiron and XPS models tend to be extremely repairable (and fairly upgradable, which is where Apple really falls flat). Granted that there will always be lemons (and there have been lemon Macs, in which case you are SOL), but by and large people replacing PCs after a year or two just don't care to take the time. I'm currently using a Dell XPS laptop that will turn 12 years old in a few months. Since I bought it, I've been able to 1. Replace the AC adapter and battery multiple times (the most common failure point for this model). 2. Upgrade the screen (yes, really!) to a wide color gamut model that can do photo editing in the AdobeRGB space. (New Macs have good screens, but not so long ago even the MBP only had an sRGB screen). 3. Add an SSD. 4. Upgrade the memory (supports up to 32 GB). 5. Upgrade the WiFi adapter card to a new model that supports WiFi 5 (née AC), getting me much faster wireless without having to buy a new laptop. And ... a bunch of other stuff. All this has cost me less money, in total, than a brand new bottom-of-the-line Dell model would have cost me at any point in the last 12 years. The point being, if you're going to replace your device after 4 years anyway, may as well get a Macbook Air at this point (especially with the M1/M2 chip). But I've been delighted by the longevity of my old Dell.
  - chubbnix 4y ago
    I still have my Asus ROG g73S from 2010 and boot it up from time to time when I need a windows machine or CD/DVD/blu ray player. It runs windows 10 these days and doesn't have any issues with drivers, I definitely think its closer to apple in terms of both price and longevity. I use a macbook pro as my daily driver now and love the smaller form factor though.
BluePen7 4y ago
Maybe it could have lasted 4 years, but you had to choose carefully. I've worked at orgs that used a variety of expensive windows laptops, because they kept having abysmal failure rates and switching every year. They already had stacks of failed Surface Books and ASUS Zenbooks. Maybe my HP Elitebook would have lasted, but it was terrible to use the whole time. Not that my Mac experience has been flawless, but the odds seem to be far better.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

joshstrange 4y ago

It might have lasted 4 years, but you'll note I said I knew people using them up to 10 years. In fact my 2014 MBP is still in service, a friend of mine uses it. I had a $1k+ Windows laptop that was a few years old in 2007-2009 and I was thoroughly unimpressed in it's build quality and how crappy/slow it was after 2 years. This was all pre-ssd even on macs (or at least the macs I was buying). I have no doubt that Windows laptop build quality has improved in the last decade, in no small part to chasing after Apple, but at this point I can't imagine going back to Windows so I'll never really know.

smoldesu 4y ago
There are also laptops that went the opposite direction from Apple, yet they keep on trucking. Old Thinkpads, Panasonic Toughbooks and HP Elitebooks are perfectly usable today, arguably moreso than older Macs. Toss Linux on it, and you'll have longer first-party support than any Macbook shipped in the last decade. If anything, the repairability and upgradability that prevented old Macs from being e-waste is gone now. It's hard to imagine Apple pushing the envelope on reusability or device longevity in their current era.

bmelton 4y ago

> maybe if they bought a $1200 windows machine it would have lasted 4 years Maybe it's different now (I haven't used Windows in decades, so I don't know) but I will say that it never felt that way to me. Perhaps because Apple controls the OS and the hardware, and has the ability to either spend extra time optimizing for older known hardware that falls within a support window or to delay a feature that would be problematic for older-but-supported hardware, but my lived experience with Apple hardware is that I get a lot more practical longevity out of it without having to work to squeeze every last drop of performance out of it. Yes, I can always take a $1200 Windows machine and put XFCE or Xubuntu or Mate on it and it'll extend its life considerably, but as someone who has always tried to extend the life of my components as long as possible (the server at my feet is an Athlon FX) -- it's always just felt easier on Apple hardware. It's even easier still with non-Windows PC operating systems, but ... has Windows gotten better on this regard or is that longevity still bolstered by migrating away from Windows?

goosedragons 4y ago
From a software support perspective macOS is the worst. They don't tell you how long an OS/machine will be supported for they just cut off support whenever they feel like it. So some machines will get 5 years, some 8, it's a roll of the dice. They sort of update N-2 versions but they also don't bring back every bug fix so... I don't think they spend any real time optimizing for old hardware, for example APFS is just a turd on HDD systems and yet they forced everyone on it and worse yet kept selling HDD iMacs on the low end (which really wasn't that low). Meanwhile MS announces in advance what the support window will be. With Windows 10 there was barely any difference in requirements from Windows 8 so pretty much everything that wasn't a bottom tier netbook or tablet from 2010 still works fine and is supported until 2025. Meanwhile the 2013 Mac Pro which was an expensive beast and sold until late 2019 won't even get some security updates in 2025. Linux and the BSDs also announce ahead of time the support period and there's a plethora of options for aging hardware.
- kyleplum 4y ago
  It seems dishonest to leave out Windows 11 when talking about how MS is for announcing in advance what support will be. They did not give anywhere near proper notice about the TPM/UEFI/Secureboot requirement ahead of time.
  - Rimintil 4y ago
    > They did not give anywhere near proper notice about the TPM/UEFI/Secureboot requirement ahead of time. Nearly all machines, DIY included, would have met these requirements. Intel PTT has been built into their processors since 2013. AMD for at least a few years.
adastra22 4y ago
From a software compatibility perspective, nothing beats Windows. Your windows laptop will continue to run flawlessly until the hardware stops working (although you may have to do a clean reinstall from time to time). Microsoft takes software compatibility very seriously. Hardware as high quality as Apple is harder to come by though, and generally commands the same price premium.

bombcar 4y ago

The problem is finding the $1200 windows machine that feels valuable and worth it after four years; it's hard to find one that has the "build quality" if you will. Maybe people with the Surface are pleased with it still, that looked pretty nice.

SoftTalker 4y ago
I mean, any "pro" grade Dell or Lenovo laptop will last 10 years if it's not dropped or otherwise abused too badly. I've had several. I don't run Windows on them, so don't know how that experience would be. But hardware-wise they hold up. They aren't quite as light and elegant as a Mac but that doesn't matter to me.
- bscphil 4y ago
  Even commodity Dells like the Inspiron and XPS models tend to be extremely repairable (and fairly upgradable, which is where Apple really falls flat). Granted that there will always be lemons (and there have been lemon Macs, in which case you are SOL), but by and large people replacing PCs after a year or two just don't care to take the time. I'm currently using a Dell XPS laptop that will turn 12 years old in a few months. Since I bought it, I've been able to 1. Replace the AC adapter and battery multiple times (the most common failure point for this model). 2. Upgrade the screen (yes, really!) to a wide color gamut model that can do photo editing in the AdobeRGB space. (New Macs have good screens, but not so long ago even the MBP only had an sRGB screen). 3. Add an SSD. 4. Upgrade the memory (supports up to 32 GB). 5. Upgrade the WiFi adapter card to a new model that supports WiFi 5 (née AC), getting me much faster wireless without having to buy a new laptop. And ... a bunch of other stuff. All this has cost me less money, in total, than a brand new bottom-of-the-line Dell model would have cost me at any point in the last 12 years. The point being, if you're going to replace your device after 4 years anyway, may as well get a Macbook Air at this point (especially with the M1/M2 chip). But I've been delighted by the longevity of my old Dell.
- chubbnix 4y ago
  I still have my Asus ROG g73S from 2010 and boot it up from time to time when I need a windows machine or CD/DVD/blu ray player. It runs windows 10 these days and doesn't have any issues with drivers, I definitely think its closer to apple in terms of both price and longevity. I use a macbook pro as my daily driver now and love the smaller form factor though.

BluePen7 4y ago

Maybe it could have lasted 4 years, but you had to choose carefully. I've worked at orgs that used a variety of expensive windows laptops, because they kept having abysmal failure rates and switching every year. They already had stacks of failed Surface Books and ASUS Zenbooks. Maybe my HP Elitebook would have lasted, but it was terrible to use the whole time. Not that my Mac experience has been flawless, but the odds seem to be far better.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]