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Encryption on Nextcloud is a mess. Something about their update process is enormously fragile and its often pain to do (side note: I recently discovered there's

by kayson 4y ago

Encryption on Nextcloud is a mess. Something about their update process is enormously fragile and its often pain to do (side note: I recently discovered there's a CLI updater, and that's definitely the way to go). I eventually just had to give up on E2EE and shut then whole thing off, which was also a pain because I kept running into errors. Fortunately everything is stored on my homelab and my users are all family so they don't care if I can see their files. https://github.com/nextcloud/server/issues/24240 https://github.com/nextcloud/server/issues/24240 I really wish there was a high performance alternative with equally polished clients that didn't have all the enterprise "we need to make money" cruft.

Avamander 4y ago
I'm not sure if it'll work in the exact same use-case you use Nextcloud for, but Syncthing is really fast and works really well across upgrades and everything. The only exception being symlinks, and case-sensitivity in some edge cases.
- kayson 4y ago
  I've looked at syncthing and the usage model isn't quite what I want. I really want a dropbox alternative, for my users' sake, as opposed to a decentralized synchronization service.
  - rsolva 4y ago
    I use Synchting as a Dropbox replacement. My always-on TrueNAS is just another node, but functions as the "server". Synthing is great, it has a small footprint and works anywhere. I just set it and forget it.
tiberious726 4y ago
Remember when encryption just didn't work on subfolders, but they kept telling everyone it did? https://github.com/nextcloud/desktop/issues/816 https://github.com/nextcloud/desktop/issues/816 Unless they've really cleaned up their act, nextcloud just isn't suitable for real data. I would pay _so_ much money for a correctly functioning WebDAV server, maintained by responsible professionals. EDIT: looks like they have _not_ cleaned up their act whatsoever: https://github.com/nextcloud/end_to_end_encryption/issues/382 https://github.com/nextcloud/end_to_end_encryption/issues/38...
- actionfromafar 4y ago
  What do you use a WebDAV server for? Trying to understand if or how I should add it to my offer. :)
- jamesponddotco 4y ago
  I wonder how ownCloud is doing these days, especially since it looks like they changed everything to Go.
  - fffrantz 4y ago
    Me too! I also wonder about migration from Nextcloud. I might try to migrate a staging Nextcloud instance if I get around to it.
  - tiberious726 4y ago
    I didn't realize this was finally ready! Thanks! Definitely going to check it out.
- teddyh 4y ago
  > EDIT: looks like they have _not_ cleaned up their act whatsoever: That link states that is is fixed now, though?
  - crtasm 4y ago
    No response from contributors. OP there says: > But after updating ... now it works, but I don't now why and I'm not sure why and if it will continue working properly. I cannot trust such a system.
    - teddyh 4y ago
      That could be simply explained as being justification of their decision after the fact. OP may have already decided to stop using the software, so even when they were informed that the software was fixed, they couldn’t back down. It’s a perfectly normal reaction, but not necessarily a rational one. Therefore, we cannot assume it is reasonable to follow their example.
donmcronald 4y ago
Nextcloud has had too many longstanding bugs like the one that mangles metadata, breaks sync, and requires server side intervention to fix [1]. I don’t trust them to do normal sync anymore. There’s no way I’d take the risk of letting them encrypt my data. They need to slow down on features before tech debt ruins their product (if it hasn’t already). 1. https://github.com/nextcloud/desktop/issues/4378 https://github.com/nextcloud/desktop/issues/4378
- RealStickman_ 4y ago
  Their sync client is absolute garbage imo. 1. On Windows, at least on my system, setting an upload limit/automatic limit crashes the client regularly. 1a. Right clicking in Windows Explorer when Nextcloud is in that state causes it to crash as well. 2. Android auto upload feature for photos fails often. For both of those problems I've found new and old, open and closed issues. Thankfully I can work around #1 by not using any limit (sometimes annoying) and #2 by using a decent WebDAV client (FolderSync) instead.
butonic 4y ago
full disclosure: ocis lead dev here I would be happy to hear what you think of ownCloud Infinite Scale, a go microservice implementation of the ownCloud WebDAV and sharing APIs. We are limiting ourselves to file sync and share, but integrations with collabora and OnlyOffice are there. Just don't expect server side encryption. It was only added to the oc10 codebase to prevent storage admins to read the data. It does not protect against evil sysadmins in the least. Imo an encrypted filesystem or overlay filesystem can be used to solve that use case. If you need E2EE cryptomator works just fine. That being said, oCIS does add other things to the table: for an out of box experience we bundle a small OpenID Connect Identity provider that should suffice for a small home lab. And we now support parts of the libre graph API, which is an effort to build a federated graph API closely following Microsoft Graph. Obviously, our team focuses on file sync and share, but e.g. the Kopano guys are working on the PIM parts. The team is busy preparing the next release and customer projects based on the new stack, but we are happy with what we have achieved so far. Just drop by in our https://talk.owncloud.com/channel/infinitescale https://talk.owncloud.com/channel/infinitescale rocket chat and let us know on GitHub what you think. I'll go back to my vacation
- kayson 4y ago
  I am definitely interested! I have some initial thoughts, and I'll post them on rocketchat as well later. * It looks very competitive for people who use Nextcloud just for sync/share and don't want the cruft * To be competitive in the homelab space, you really need a docker container! * LDAP auth is a good start, but SSO would be even better; SAML is only available on enterprise, but not many selfhosters use that anyways * I don't think there's much need for another OIDC provider in the selfhosting space; people are going to use Authelia, Authentik, or Keycloak anyways. * Having an OIDC client that can use the above, which I already have set up, would be the best scenario * Finding stuff on your website was not super intuitive; I wanted to see what's available in the community version (which I eventually found in pricing), and then I wasn't quite sure if that page is up to date for OCIS (ditto for the feature comparison page) Oh and enjoy your vacation!
  - jacooper 4y ago

by kayson 4y ago

Avamander 4y ago

I'm not sure if it'll work in the exact same use-case you use Nextcloud for, but Syncthing is really fast and works really well across upgrades and everything. The only exception being symlinks, and case-sensitivity in some edge cases.

kayson 4y ago
I've looked at syncthing and the usage model isn't quite what I want. I really want a dropbox alternative, for my users' sake, as opposed to a decentralized synchronization service.
- rsolva 4y ago
  I use Synchting as a Dropbox replacement. My always-on TrueNAS is just another node, but functions as the "server". Synthing is great, it has a small footprint and works anywhere. I just set it and forget it.

tiberious726 4y ago

Remember when encryption just didn't work on subfolders, but they kept telling everyone it did? https://github.com/nextcloud/desktop/issues/816 https://github.com/nextcloud/desktop/issues/816 Unless they've really cleaned up their act, nextcloud just isn't suitable for real data. I would pay _so_ much money for a correctly functioning WebDAV server, maintained by responsible professionals. EDIT: looks like they have _not_ cleaned up their act whatsoever: https://github.com/nextcloud/end_to_end_encryption/issues/382 https://github.com/nextcloud/end_to_end_encryption/issues/38...

actionfromafar 4y ago
What do you use a WebDAV server for? Trying to understand if or how I should add it to my offer. :)
jamesponddotco 4y ago
I wonder how ownCloud is doing these days, especially since it looks like they changed everything to Go.
- fffrantz 4y ago
  Me too! I also wonder about migration from Nextcloud. I might try to migrate a staging Nextcloud instance if I get around to it.
- tiberious726 4y ago
  I didn't realize this was finally ready! Thanks! Definitely going to check it out.
teddyh 4y ago
> EDIT: looks like they have _not_ cleaned up their act whatsoever: That link states that is is fixed now, though?
- crtasm 4y ago
  No response from contributors. OP there says: > But after updating ... now it works, but I don't now why and I'm not sure why and if it will continue working properly. I cannot trust such a system.
  - teddyh 4y ago
    That could be simply explained as being justification of their decision after the fact. OP may have already decided to stop using the software, so even when they were informed that the software was fixed, they couldn’t back down. It’s a perfectly normal reaction, but not necessarily a rational one. Therefore, we cannot assume it is reasonable to follow their example.

donmcronald 4y ago

Nextcloud has had too many longstanding bugs like the one that mangles metadata, breaks sync, and requires server side intervention to fix [1]. I don’t trust them to do normal sync anymore. There’s no way I’d take the risk of letting them encrypt my data. They need to slow down on features before tech debt ruins their product (if it hasn’t already). 1. https://github.com/nextcloud/desktop/issues/4378 https://github.com/nextcloud/desktop/issues/4378

RealStickman_ 4y ago
Their sync client is absolute garbage imo. 1. On Windows, at least on my system, setting an upload limit/automatic limit crashes the client regularly. 1a. Right clicking in Windows Explorer when Nextcloud is in that state causes it to crash as well. 2. Android auto upload feature for photos fails often. For both of those problems I've found new and old, open and closed issues. Thankfully I can work around #1 by not using any limit (sometimes annoying) and #2 by using a decent WebDAV client (FolderSync) instead.

butonic 4y ago

full disclosure: ocis lead dev here I would be happy to hear what you think of ownCloud Infinite Scale, a go microservice implementation of the ownCloud WebDAV and sharing APIs. We are limiting ourselves to file sync and share, but integrations with collabora and OnlyOffice are there. Just don't expect server side encryption. It was only added to the oc10 codebase to prevent storage admins to read the data. It does not protect against evil sysadmins in the least. Imo an encrypted filesystem or overlay filesystem can be used to solve that use case. If you need E2EE cryptomator works just fine. That being said, oCIS does add other things to the table: for an out of box experience we bundle a small OpenID Connect Identity provider that should suffice for a small home lab. And we now support parts of the libre graph API, which is an effort to build a federated graph API closely following Microsoft Graph. Obviously, our team focuses on file sync and share, but e.g. the Kopano guys are working on the PIM parts. The team is busy preparing the next release and customer projects based on the new stack, but we are happy with what we have achieved so far. Just drop by in our https://talk.owncloud.com/channel/infinitescale https://talk.owncloud.com/channel/infinitescale rocket chat and let us know on GitHub what you think. I'll go back to my vacation

kayson 4y ago
I am definitely interested! I have some initial thoughts, and I'll post them on rocketchat as well later. * It looks very competitive for people who use Nextcloud just for sync/share and don't want the cruft * To be competitive in the homelab space, you really need a docker container! * LDAP auth is a good start, but SSO would be even better; SAML is only available on enterprise, but not many selfhosters use that anyways * I don't think there's much need for another OIDC provider in the selfhosting space; people are going to use Authelia, Authentik, or Keycloak anyways. * Having an OIDC client that can use the above, which I already have set up, would be the best scenario * Finding stuff on your website was not super intuitive; I wanted to see what's available in the community version (which I eventually found in pricing), and then I wasn't quite sure if that page is up to date for OCIS (ditto for the feature comparison page) Oh and enjoy your vacation!
- jacooper 4y ago