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As a Ukrainian immigrant living in the US the current situation in Ukraine is infuriating. I left Ukraine when I was a teenager nearly a quarter of a century ag
by IgorPartola 4y ago
As a Ukrainian immigrant living in the US the current situation in Ukraine is infuriating. I left Ukraine when I was a teenager nearly a quarter of a century ago and it was obvious to me then that sooner or later Russia would want its breadbasket back and an invasion would happen. How was this not clear to those in power? Zelinsky started the process of trying to get the country’s ducks in a row to be able to join NATO and I was happy about that, but it was obviously a little too obvious and a little too late. Russia in the early 2000s was in no shape to invade and that was the time to make this move. But corruption and every level of the government prevented it and gave Russia multiple openings to fuck with Ukraine, from installing pro-Russian presidents, to squeezing Ukraine with gas prices, to eventually annexing Crimea with little to no consequences.
How many lives would have not been completely destroyed had the powers that be 15-20 years ago gotten their act together?
I should say that IMO Zelinsky is doing as excellent a job as he possibly can with the situation now. The main issue is not joining NATO when it wouldn’t have resulted in war before the process can be completed. And maybe NATO needs a provisional membership process that allows a country to be temporarily considered an ally via a much quicker path so that while it gains full membership it cannot be invaded.
- credit_guy 4y agoI don't understand who you think is to blame here? Was NATO supposed to accept Ukraine without Ukraine applying for membership?
- sylens 4y agoIt seems clear to me that the GP is blaming past Ukrainian leadership
- Animatronio 4y ago[flagged]
- toomuchtodo 4y agoHow much has been spent on the Ukraine Russia conflict that could’ve been avoided if Russia had feared a NATO response (assuming existing Ukraine membership)? Avoided spending that now must be spent to defang Russia. The numbers I’ve seen thrown around are $100B+ in conflict cost. Cheaper to have done the paperwork and meetings imho, not to mention the exceptional loss of life in aggregate.
- IgorPartola 4y agoNobody is demanding anything of NATO. I am retroactively demanding that the Ukrainian leadership should have rooted out corruption and got Ukraine’s ducks in a row so that it could join NATO. And the whole point of NATO is that most smaller countries do not benefit NATO as much as the alliance benefits them. Yet the cumulative effect is more world peace. Besides, did you not notice the effect the war in Ukraine had on things like gas prices in the US?
- bshipp 4y agoUkraine's inability to root out corruption so that it could join the EU/NATO wasn't some national failing as much as a very active Russian FSB/SVR presence inside Ukraine that prevented any significant reforms. The invasion was an admittance that their underhanded techniques were failing and a more active method of intervention into Ukrainian politics was necessary.
- rendall 4y agoI'm pretty certain that it was Ukraine's increasingly successful campaigns to purge its corruption that prompted Russia to invade.
- bshipp 4y agoAbsolutely correct. Reading my post, I realize my conclusion was unclear: each successive elimination of corruption within Ukraine, starting in the 2010's, was more and more threatening to Putin and his oligarch cronies until pressure on their theft of oil revenues become unbearable.
- Animatronio 4y ago[flagged]
- khochesh_kushat 4y agoBy demanding, you mean requesting?
- postingawayonhn 4y agoIt probably would have deterred Russia from invading and saved most NATO countries a ton of money. Basically the entire point of NATO is to stop Russia going to war with its neighbiors. And now Ukraine is going to be quite a week equipped and experienced ally. Certainly a country NATO should be happy to have on its side.
- Animatronio 4y agoBut NATO literally (and I also mean geographically) NATO has Ukr on its side. So what more would a country like say Portugal gain from Ukraine's NATO membership, except perhaps having to contribute to their defense even more?
- greedo 4y agoPortugal has barely hit the 2% goal for defense spending that NATO members are supposed to be targeting. So it's not like they'd be spending more to protect Ukraine.
- Animatronio 4y agoPortugal was only an example. They could however find themselves pressured to send soldiers, and not only supplies, should NATO decide to openly declare war on Russia.
- lostmsu 4y agoSo 2% too?
- smegger001 4y agothe whole point is by having this big block of countries agreeing to cooperatively fight Russia is if any of them are attacked, is that we don't actually have to fallow through because its to big of a risk for Russia to act up. If they had been part of NATO to begin with none of us would actually had to of sent any aid like we are now. NATO membership is as much about mutual coordination and defense as is is about deterring Russia from starting war in Europe.
- flexie 4y agoUkrainian NATO membership does benefit NATO in several ways: - Ukraine is the only country in Europe to have fought off NATO's main adversary - Ukraine has a large, powerful and experienced army, much larger than those of most NATO countries - Ukraine in NATO will be seen by the older NATO members as a adding another buffer state - Ukraine in NATO will be seen by the newer NATO members such as the Baltic countries or Poland, as having another ally bordering Russia - Ukraine is a new democracy and is (was) a rising economy. It benefits NATO to include these in NATO - The populations of most European NATO countries are in favor of Ukrainian membership.
- Animatronio 4y ago- Ukraine is the only country to have fought off Russia, except Finland, Lithuania, Poland, Germany. - Ukraine's army if frankly in tatters, being propped by massive supplies of ammo, weapons and mercs - Ukraine is already a buffer state by virtue of its geographical position - your last 3 points are simply appeals to emotions and in no way arguments for Ukraine's membership.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- flexie 4y agoAll these wars were before NATO existed. Ukraine’s defense is a formidable army which has stopped the advance of what most experts thought was the second most powerful army in the world, and the fact that Ukraine is supplied weapons, training and ammunition from NATO countries doesn’t change that. It only adds to the point that NATO itself recognizes that Ukraine belongs in the alliance. If Ukraine loses the war it will cease to be a buffer and become part of Russia.
- Animatronio 4y agoThen one could also argue that no NATO country has ever fought off Russia. Ukraine barely stopped the Russians, even with the massive help of NATO (both before and after the 2021 invasion). It doesn't follow at all that NATO thinks Ukr is a member. Ukr is just that - a buffer country that should not be taken by Russia. This is not meant in an offensive way, think of it as a neutral country like Switzerland or Austria.
- finfrastrcuture 4y agoGetting hung up on the transactional piece of this is tragic. Ukraine constitutes a society that has embraced (evidenced by their revolution, stiff resistance so far, etc.) enlightenment values - the worth of an individual, a rules based society, meritocracy, etc. Before we run to all the counterfactuals, these values are generally instilled in the culture (particularly the younger demographics). NATO essentially exists to protect this common, values-based order. Not granting membership earlier was those countries (mentioned in other comments) over-rotating on transactional-based benefits, over value-based ones. That's why there's such frustration now over getting Ukraine into NATO now. Will it happen? No, diplomatically impossible while they're engaged in hot war. But the moral outrage is reasonable given the bloody price they've paid in defense of the values NATO exists to protect. To clearly connect the dots...considering Ukraine as part of NATO benefits NATO in that it allows them to uphold those values it exists to serve, giving it purpose and strength from the unity of its member countries (and moral investment of the individuals who serve its armies).
- rossdavidh 4y agoI believe Ukraine did apply, or at least indicate they wanted to. The real reason Ukraine did not get invited to join NATO is that, even after the 2014 invasion of Crimea, lots of people in Europe wanted to believe that it was still possible to do business with Russia, and that they would come around eventually. There are a lot of people who still believe that doing business with someone makes them come around to democracy eventually; this was also a reason given by President Clinton for normalizing trade with China (where it has also not worked). It has been a bit of a political earthquake for Germany to find itself arming others, perhaps more even for the political elite than for the general population. I don't think it would have been possible to convince them that Ukraine should be admitted prior to 2022. Now, of course, attitudes are very different (thankfully), but prior to 2022 the plan for most of Europe (and honestly most of North America as well) was to be nice to Russia and they would come around, because otherwise they would lost to much money. It turns out that is a bad strategy.
- JeremyNT 4y ago> There are a lot of people who still believe that doing business with someone makes them come around to democracy eventually; this was also a reason given by President Clinton for normalizing trade with China (where it has also not worked). Well I suppose it's impossible to determine real motivations of politicians, but I always assumed this was simply BS that nobody in power ever really believed. I mean, when you're addicted to cheap oil/labor/whatever but the regime with the cheap oil/labor/whatever has some pesky anti-democratic tendencies, what better way to sell it to a skeptical population than to tell them that by merely consuming the cheap goods the transaction itself will somehow change the problematic regime's ideology?
- ajross 4y ago> even after the 2014 invasion of Crimea, lots of people in Europe wanted to believe that it was still possible to do business with Russia Frankly this is true in the US too. It's true everywhere in the west, where there are inexplicable enclaves of Russophilic sentiment that flies in the face of all reason and evidence. Tech bros think they're a great new market. Finance wonks think they're a regulatory backdoor into European money. Old guard tankies still think they're anti-imperialist heroes. Reactionary right wingers think they're ethnic paragons fighting the culture war the west is too afraid of. Name a demographic, and you'll find a pack of sincere Russian apologists hiding in it somewhere. When the history books finally get written once all the partisans are dead, the ability of this tiny, shrinking Russian state to effect this kind of information war is going to be the subject of book after book.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 4y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Bucharest_summit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Bucharest_summit > United States, Canada, Poland, Romania, the Czechs and the Baltic States, strongly supported Ukraine and Georgia becoming NATO action plan members; however, they were strongly opposed by Germany, France, Italy, Spain, the Netherlands and Belgium. Mere months later Russia invades Georgia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Georgian_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Georgian_War France and Germany are to blame.
- tejohnso 4y agoAs a Ukrainian immigrant, how do you feel about the claims that ehtno-Russians in eastern Ukraine were being harassed and killed and having their culture made illegal by the Ukrainian government or its actors? There's so much propaganda on both sides. How do you feel about western involvement in 2014?
- slaw 4y agoIt is whataboutism. There are no saints in this world.
- boomskats 4y agoIt's as much a case of whataboutism as your statement is of ignoratio elenchi. That's not to say that I don't agree with your second statement. However, global geopolitics is far more complicated than how it tends to be presented to the general population, especially at times of war, and I don't think the OP asked the question in a malicious or dismissive way. We shouldn't be so quick to dismiss arguments as fallacies just because they don't line up with our point of view.
- tejohnso 4y ago> I don't think the OP asked the question in a malicious or dismissive way You're right I didn't ask in a malicious or dismissive way. And I don't see why my question was flagged. I'm not making an argument, I'm just asking a question of someone who has more involvement than I have and may have something interesting to say on the matter. I guess I can't even ask a question if it mentions detail that goes against the accepted western narrative. Not here anyway.
- slaw 4y agoI agree with what you wrote, I only tried to point that your comment, even if valid is not related to Finland joining NATO.
- 4y ago
- unmole 4y ago> Russia would want its breadbasket back and an invasion would happen. In 2019, Russia produced almost 3 times as much wheat as Ukraine. The invasion was launched by a deranged psychopath, let's not pretend Russia in anyways benefited from this.
- khochesh_kushat 4y agoRussia is 28 times larger than Ukraine. They certainly want to benefit from the resources in Ukraine that they're trying to annex (although I'll admit it certainly doesn't look like they are ever going to achieve their goals and benefit from actually conquering the country as they planned, if that's what you meant.)
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- ptnxlo 4y ago> ... let's not pretend Russia in anyways benefited from this. I hope you're not using only the wheat production of a country to formulate your answer on this.
- Zigurd 4y agoRussian wheat production is large-scale, but horribly inefficient. This was launched, in part, as a "resource war."
- freehorse 4y ago> And maybe NATO needs a provisional membership process that allows a country to be temporarily considered an ally via a much quicker path so that while it gains full membership it cannot be invaded. When people mistake a feature for a bug.
- qikInNdOutReply 4y agoI life in a european country, and to be honest, im shocked how many of the "old guard" politicians and diplomats consider the whole crisis just a temporary upheaval in the russia relations, that can be waited out before everything is normal again. Waiting to resume the careers as if nothing happened. A quarter million people dead, because these corrupt non-show of a generation failed to act decisevly, hypnotized itself and after wakeup they do not have the decency to fade into the shadow, step back from all posts and make way for a new guard, ready to take decisive action. So many dissapointments, especially among the pacifists and anti-imperialists.. intellectual & moral bankruptcy wherever you look. Might aswell trash the last 50 years of nice words and nothing to show for it. The idea, for all these creatures of comfort to return after the conflict, from the dark and moist places they hid, and try to carry on playacting civilized makes me vomit. "Never again" they yell, while being usefull idiots for those who are at it again. A majority of cowards, who think that power of believe alone will make them good at the end of history after all this. Im so sorry i wasted all those years listening to them, reading there books and actually believing them to have value beyond the "heating" of the pulped wood.
- Animatronio 4y agoWhat would you have them do? March tens of thousands of young Europeans into the trenches?
- hdjjhhvvhga 4y agoIf the OP is talking about specific politicians like Merkel, Schroeder, even Schulz... First, they should say loud and clear they made a terrible mistake (I believe Merkel said something like this quietly and not clearly). Second, they should do everything to help Ukraine and Ukrainians. Yes, a lot has been done. Not enough and not fast enough. BTW I still feel amazed how quickly and efficiently they dealt with power plant/stations repairs when Putin decided to freeze the whole population to death in the middle of the winter. All my respect to these brave folks.
- Animatronio 4y ago