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Anyone who's been paying attention I believe would agree that our foreign policy around Ukraine has come at a huge cost not only to us financially and economica

Anyone who's been paying attention I believe would agree that our foreign policy around Ukraine has come at a huge cost not only to us financially and economically, but also to our foreign relations. Under this conflict our relations with China, India, Brazil, Saudi Arabia -- these are important partners -- have degraded. Having watched that unfold, this isn't a surprise to me.

deleted 4y ago
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ericmay 4y ago
Well. China relationship is strained for many reasons, Ukraine and their general support for Russia conducting the war is just icing on the cake. This has strained Chinese relations with multiple countries though (UK, EU members, etc.). India I’m not seeing much in the way of change. The US at least didn’t really do anything different with India buying Russian oil. US relations with South American companies are variable and generally slightly negative based on what I’ve seen, but I’m not really sure how they have gotten worse. What is leading you to believe that they are? Saudi Arabia I somewhat agree with but think Middle East politics are extremely complex. Wouldn’t read much into Chinese efforts there. On the other hand, the US has shored up massive support from all of Europe ex Belarus, Japan, South Korea, Canada, and Australia at a minimum. Finland joins NATO tomorrow. Overall I’d say the war has been a large boost to American foreign relations on the whole. Can’t please everyone anyway. W.r.t cost -> everybody is spending money. Russia especially.
- pastacacioepepe 4y ago
  On the contrary this looks like the beginning of the end of USA global hegemony. The dollar relevance is degrading and while the west is siding closer with the USA, the rest of the world is distancing itself from them. > On the other hand, the US has shored up massive support from all of Europe ex Belarus, Japan Regarding Japan this very news article contradicts you somehow. > Finland joins NATO tomorrow. Finland is insignificant from a geopolitical point of view. Its joining NATO only makes NATO less secure as a whole, rather than strenghtening it.
  - imwithstoopid 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - pastacacioepepe 4y ago
      Especially Latin Americans.
    - 5040 4y ago
      Demand for American currency abroad brought stability to the currency. If that demand should diminish significantly, future American financial excesses will become a lot more dangerous. This might speed along decline or motivate a return to more disciplined economic policies. Time will tell.
      - starkd 4y ago
        The end of the ability to run deficits. Social Security and medicare financial problems become exponentially more urgent and dire.
        imwithstoopid 4y ago
        no I'm talking about the part where poor Americans who join the armed forces go to foreign countries, are asked to kill people and sometimes die themselves
  - hem777 4y ago
    > Its joining NATO only makes NATO less secure as a whole, rather than strenghtening it. Why is that?
    - pastacacioepepe 4y ago
      It doesn't bring additional strength to the table, rather it's a country in need of protection. This means now every other NATO country has a higher chance of being forced in a defensive war if something happens to Finland. On the other hand Finland won't be able to contribute much to protect other NATO countries. Hence, NATO countries are a bit less safe now.
- triggerwarn 4y ago
  There's no massive support for the US interventionism. There's massive solidarity towards ukrainian refugees. Other than that we want the conflict to end asap and we don't see the US as a peacemaking side
- starkd 4y ago
  >> India I’m not seeing much in the way of change. The US at least didn’t really do anything different with India buying Russian oil. On the contrary, perhaps relations are not that good. https://hindupost.in/world/target-modi-us-regime-change-machine-moves-into-third-gear/ https://hindupost.in/world/target-modi-us-regime-change-mach...
  - unmole 4y ago
    I didn't have high hopes based on the domain name but the opening is something else! > The US is working very hard, in full force to change Modi regime; its the top agenda item for the Hillary-Obama Cabal that is the real power behind Biden.
ceejayoz 4y ago
US-NATO/EU relations, in contrast, have rarely been stronger, and a long-standing US goal of increasing European defense spending has now become feasible. China and the Saudis are unlikely to somehow turn into genuine friends, and in China's case specifically the unified stance in Ukraine (as well as the "it's harder to invade than you might think" message) sends a bit of a message in the case of Taiwan. The trade-off seems pretty acceptable.
- csomar 4y ago
  > China and the Saudis are unlikely to somehow turn into genuine friends China and the Saudis are the perfect match. Both are authoritarian regimes that do business. China needs liquid energy and the Saudi needs access to stuff and capital markets. The Chinese can now provide an alternative.
  - ceejayoz 4y ago
    For clarity, I'm saying they're unlikely to turn into genuine friends of the US and US foreign policy. Wasn't talking about relations between China and Saudi. Ukraine hasn't really changed anything in that calculus.
- GenerWork 4y ago
  >a long-standing US goal of increasing European defense spending has now become feasible. Call me when every European nation actually hits their required NATO spending amount. Until then, talk is cheap.
- Ekaros 4y ago
  I wonder where is the money to increase the spending? Even more insane level of debt? Even more suffering with inflation and lessening of public services?
  - ceejayoz 4y ago
    Inaction has a price, too. Russia has even helpfully provided a concrete example of the costs of it.
fakedang 4y ago
Sometimes it's okay to assume that cost, if it means standing on the right side morally. As an Indian, I detest the Russian invasion. In fact, a number of Indians do, and it's only a few vocal fanatics who seem to support Russia's invasion. None of us thought Russia would be stupid enough to invade Ukraine, and we all thought it was a ploy to raise oilprices by making up "tensions at the border". And trust me, the West's relationship with India hasn't changed. Rather India's relationship with Russia has degraded slightly, since India has begun programmes in every front to dispose of Russian military tech. India continues to buy oil from Russia, as does Japan, China, etc, only because it's the rational thing to do - you're getting dirt cheap prices and you're an oil-starved nation, why wouldn't you be an opportunist? And if I remember correctly, the West leadership tacitly supports this arrangement as that helps stabilize oil prices for the West buying from the rest of the suppliers. US relations with the other countries in the list have degraded but that's largely because of the Trump and Biden governments policies towards them, and less because of Ukraine.
- pmontra 4y ago
  > India has begun programmes in every front to dispose of Russian military tech I've been wondering about that. I imagined that countries buying weapons from Russia would be worried and considering to pivot to another seller. Maybe this not because of the poor display of those weapons in combat, after all they just must be not worse than the weapons of the neighbors or of the other internal factions, but because they could run out of spare parts and new items. If Russia doesn't have enough weapons to refill its own losses, it can sell some to get money, but not as much as one year ago. I don't think that China is an option for India, so maybe the USA, something from Europe or internal production. The latter would be best because of no strings attached, but is it feasible in the short / medium term?
  - st4lz 4y ago
    I can see the mutual partnerships are on the rise. There is a brand new polish-korean cooperation for producing various weapons. India may produce its own equipment by finding a reliable partner that would help with know-how.
dougmwne 4y ago
It seems quite obvious that a major global conflict comes with a cost. The main question becomes, is the cost worth it? Inaction also has a cost, possibly less cost in the short term while the profits keep rolling in and more cost in the long term when the tanks start rolling in.
simonh 4y ago
The fact that there's a major land war in Ukraine, which the US did not start and had no power to prevent, has come at a huge cost. This is true. Given that Ukraine patently was not just going to roll over, and even if the US hadn't supported them, much of Europe absolutely would. I think it's petty plain the war would still be raging fiercely anyway. Most likely Russia would be on the skirts of or in Kyiv and Odessa by now, with a horrible bloody partisan conflict reminiscent of Vietnam or Afghanistan, or a massively scaled up version of the Chechnya war raging throughout the country. Do you relish the prospect of Russian troops on the borders of Poland, Slovakia, Hungary and Romania? I don't. Meanwhile US relations with Europe would be at the lowest level since WW2, it would be seen as an utter abandonment and betrayal of our shared values, including US treaty guarantees on the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine. America's allies across the world would know for a fact the US could not be relied upon to support them. Russia would know this. Taiwan would know this. China and North Korea would know this. They would also realise that this situation might only last as long as the current administration. There are some in the world that would see this as a golden opportunity.
- 5040 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - mcphage 4y ago
    > two of the more plausible candidates for the beginning of this whole thing are [...] the American invasion of Serbia Are we talking about 1999?
    - Iwan-Zotow 4y ago
      yes, 1999
    - 5040 4y ago
      Yeah. Those initial airstrikes really freaked Russia out. Relations were never the same after them. NATO's first military attack really shook them.
throwaway6734 4y ago
No it has not. We're looking at two new members to NATO, a rise in European unity coupled with an increase in defense spending, and the destruction of Russia's army. Relations with China were already decaying, things seem normal with India, and Saudi Arabia is the result of Trump and Co kissing MBSs butt while in power. The Saudis are much more reliant on the US than the other way around
deleted 4y ago
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deleted 4y ago

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ericmay 4y ago

Well. China relationship is strained for many reasons, Ukraine and their general support for Russia conducting the war is just icing on the cake. This has strained Chinese relations with multiple countries though (UK, EU members, etc.). India I’m not seeing much in the way of change. The US at least didn’t really do anything different with India buying Russian oil. US relations with South American companies are variable and generally slightly negative based on what I’ve seen, but I’m not really sure how they have gotten worse. What is leading you to believe that they are? Saudi Arabia I somewhat agree with but think Middle East politics are extremely complex. Wouldn’t read much into Chinese efforts there. On the other hand, the US has shored up massive support from all of Europe ex Belarus, Japan, South Korea, Canada, and Australia at a minimum. Finland joins NATO tomorrow. Overall I’d say the war has been a large boost to American foreign relations on the whole. Can’t please everyone anyway. W.r.t cost -> everybody is spending money. Russia especially.

pastacacioepepe 4y ago
On the contrary this looks like the beginning of the end of USA global hegemony. The dollar relevance is degrading and while the west is siding closer with the USA, the rest of the world is distancing itself from them. > On the other hand, the US has shored up massive support from all of Europe ex Belarus, Japan Regarding Japan this very news article contradicts you somehow. > Finland joins NATO tomorrow. Finland is insignificant from a geopolitical point of view. Its joining NATO only makes NATO less secure as a whole, rather than strenghtening it.
- imwithstoopid 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - pastacacioepepe 4y ago
    Especially Latin Americans.
  - 5040 4y ago
    Demand for American currency abroad brought stability to the currency. If that demand should diminish significantly, future American financial excesses will become a lot more dangerous. This might speed along decline or motivate a return to more disciplined economic policies. Time will tell.
    - starkd 4y ago
      The end of the ability to run deficits. Social Security and medicare financial problems become exponentially more urgent and dire.
      - imwithstoopid 4y ago
        no I'm talking about the part where poor Americans who join the armed forces go to foreign countries, are asked to kill people and sometimes die themselves
- hem777 4y ago
  > Its joining NATO only makes NATO less secure as a whole, rather than strenghtening it. Why is that?
  - pastacacioepepe 4y ago
    It doesn't bring additional strength to the table, rather it's a country in need of protection. This means now every other NATO country has a higher chance of being forced in a defensive war if something happens to Finland. On the other hand Finland won't be able to contribute much to protect other NATO countries. Hence, NATO countries are a bit less safe now.
triggerwarn 4y ago
There's no massive support for the US interventionism. There's massive solidarity towards ukrainian refugees. Other than that we want the conflict to end asap and we don't see the US as a peacemaking side
starkd 4y ago
>> India I’m not seeing much in the way of change. The US at least didn’t really do anything different with India buying Russian oil. On the contrary, perhaps relations are not that good. https://hindupost.in/world/target-modi-us-regime-change-machine-moves-into-third-gear/ https://hindupost.in/world/target-modi-us-regime-change-mach...
- unmole 4y ago
  I didn't have high hopes based on the domain name but the opening is something else! > The US is working very hard, in full force to change Modi regime; its the top agenda item for the Hillary-Obama Cabal that is the real power behind Biden.

ceejayoz 4y ago

US-NATO/EU relations, in contrast, have rarely been stronger, and a long-standing US goal of increasing European defense spending has now become feasible. China and the Saudis are unlikely to somehow turn into genuine friends, and in China's case specifically the unified stance in Ukraine (as well as the "it's harder to invade than you might think" message) sends a bit of a message in the case of Taiwan. The trade-off seems pretty acceptable.

csomar 4y ago
> China and the Saudis are unlikely to somehow turn into genuine friends China and the Saudis are the perfect match. Both are authoritarian regimes that do business. China needs liquid energy and the Saudi needs access to stuff and capital markets. The Chinese can now provide an alternative.
- ceejayoz 4y ago
  For clarity, I'm saying they're unlikely to turn into genuine friends of the US and US foreign policy. Wasn't talking about relations between China and Saudi. Ukraine hasn't really changed anything in that calculus.
GenerWork 4y ago
>a long-standing US goal of increasing European defense spending has now become feasible. Call me when every European nation actually hits their required NATO spending amount. Until then, talk is cheap.
Ekaros 4y ago
I wonder where is the money to increase the spending? Even more insane level of debt? Even more suffering with inflation and lessening of public services?
- ceejayoz 4y ago
  Inaction has a price, too. Russia has even helpfully provided a concrete example of the costs of it.

fakedang 4y ago

Sometimes it's okay to assume that cost, if it means standing on the right side morally. As an Indian, I detest the Russian invasion. In fact, a number of Indians do, and it's only a few vocal fanatics who seem to support Russia's invasion. None of us thought Russia would be stupid enough to invade Ukraine, and we all thought it was a ploy to raise oilprices by making up "tensions at the border". And trust me, the West's relationship with India hasn't changed. Rather India's relationship with Russia has degraded slightly, since India has begun programmes in every front to dispose of Russian military tech. India continues to buy oil from Russia, as does Japan, China, etc, only because it's the rational thing to do - you're getting dirt cheap prices and you're an oil-starved nation, why wouldn't you be an opportunist? And if I remember correctly, the West leadership tacitly supports this arrangement as that helps stabilize oil prices for the West buying from the rest of the suppliers. US relations with the other countries in the list have degraded but that's largely because of the Trump and Biden governments policies towards them, and less because of Ukraine.

pmontra 4y ago
> India has begun programmes in every front to dispose of Russian military tech I've been wondering about that. I imagined that countries buying weapons from Russia would be worried and considering to pivot to another seller. Maybe this not because of the poor display of those weapons in combat, after all they just must be not worse than the weapons of the neighbors or of the other internal factions, but because they could run out of spare parts and new items. If Russia doesn't have enough weapons to refill its own losses, it can sell some to get money, but not as much as one year ago. I don't think that China is an option for India, so maybe the USA, something from Europe or internal production. The latter would be best because of no strings attached, but is it feasible in the short / medium term?
- st4lz 4y ago
  I can see the mutual partnerships are on the rise. There is a brand new polish-korean cooperation for producing various weapons. India may produce its own equipment by finding a reliable partner that would help with know-how.

dougmwne 4y ago

It seems quite obvious that a major global conflict comes with a cost. The main question becomes, is the cost worth it? Inaction also has a cost, possibly less cost in the short term while the profits keep rolling in and more cost in the long term when the tanks start rolling in.

simonh 4y ago

The fact that there's a major land war in Ukraine, which the US did not start and had no power to prevent, has come at a huge cost. This is true. Given that Ukraine patently was not just going to roll over, and even if the US hadn't supported them, much of Europe absolutely would. I think it's petty plain the war would still be raging fiercely anyway. Most likely Russia would be on the skirts of or in Kyiv and Odessa by now, with a horrible bloody partisan conflict reminiscent of Vietnam or Afghanistan, or a massively scaled up version of the Chechnya war raging throughout the country. Do you relish the prospect of Russian troops on the borders of Poland, Slovakia, Hungary and Romania? I don't. Meanwhile US relations with Europe would be at the lowest level since WW2, it would be seen as an utter abandonment and betrayal of our shared values, including US treaty guarantees on the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine. America's allies across the world would know for a fact the US could not be relied upon to support them. Russia would know this. Taiwan would know this. China and North Korea would know this. They would also realise that this situation might only last as long as the current administration. There are some in the world that would see this as a golden opportunity.

5040 4y ago
[flagged]
- mcphage 4y ago
  > two of the more plausible candidates for the beginning of this whole thing are [...] the American invasion of Serbia Are we talking about 1999?
  - Iwan-Zotow 4y ago
    yes, 1999
  - 5040 4y ago
    Yeah. Those initial airstrikes really freaked Russia out. Relations were never the same after them. NATO's first military attack really shook them.

throwaway6734 4y ago

No it has not. We're looking at two new members to NATO, a rise in European unity coupled with an increase in defense spending, and the destruction of Russia's army. Relations with China were already decaying, things seem normal with India, and Saudi Arabia is the result of Trump and Co kissing MBSs butt while in power. The Saudis are much more reliant on the US than the other way around

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]