5 ms·

In the job I'm currently in (doing front-end for the first time in many years) I can confidently say that every time we've had a bug that was browser-specific,

In the job I'm currently in (doing front-end for the first time in many years) I can confidently say that every time we've had a bug that was browser-specific, that browser was some brand of Safari - usually Safari mobile, which shits me even more because the iPhone doesn't let users install any alternatives, i.e. literally what Microsoft went to court for. Reason enough on its own not to get an iPhone, or indeed any Apple product at all. I can only imagine how much Safari has cost the industry in wasted dev time.

realusername 4y ago
Sometimes you can even tell it just from the sentry error text itself that it's a safari bug. It has a kind of distinctive feel of nonsense, I don't know how to explain it.
vlovich123 4y ago
Microsoft went to court over that because they were leveraging their OS monopoly into a browser monopoly. Microsoft always let you install alternatives by the waybut IE was the default and most people don’t change defaults. Apple is not a monopoly unless you’re just looking at mobile profits, which historically is not how a monopoly is defined (they’re not even a monopoly in the luxury smartphone market). Android is actually much closer to being a monopoly and does all sorts of deals to maintain their monopolies on search, browsers, and Android which would warrant investigation. Now maybe a monopoly should be defined as % of total profits in a market? Not sure. It would be breaking new regulatory ground for sure. Also, from the sounds of it, Apple is going to be forced to allow third party browsers and app stores via EU regulation. It’s less clear exactly how that will work and whether that will be available to customers in other jurisdictions.
- scarface74 4y ago
  I knew this bit of false internet lore was going to come up. Out of all the things that the justice system was throwing at MS, bundling IE was the least of them and absolutely nothing changed about browser bundling in the US. No there was never a browser choice mandate.
  - vlovich123 4y ago
    That’s true. The main focus was on forcing OEMs to bundle Windows for kickbacks. The browser stuff came out of the EU.
    - scarface74 4y ago
      As is true with most laws involving tech and the EU. https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2014/12/windows-browser-ballot-comes-to-an-end-as-ec-obligation-expires/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2014/12/windo... > While there were early signs that the browser ballot screen was influencing browser usage in the EU, with Mozilla attributing some European Firefox growth to the selection page, long-term trends strongly suggest that it was next to useless. In spite of equally prominent placement on the selection screen, Opera's share even within Europe appears to have declined over the last five years. So too have Firefox and Internet Explorer. Chrome, however, has experienced significant growth.
- 411111111111111 4y ago
  > Android is actually much closer to being a monopoly Thats only true outside of the US though. iOS is >60% in the USA.
  - vlovich123 4y ago
    Not sure where that number comes from. [1] indicates Apple broke 50% for the first time ever in Q3 2022. I doubt they’ve pole vaulted to 60% the past few quarters. [1] https://9to5mac.com/2022/09/02/iphone-us-market-share/ https://9to5mac.com/2022/09/02/iphone-us-market-share/
cxr 4y ago
I've run into a pretty ridiculous Chrome bug: let f = document.createDocumentFragment(); f.appendChild(document.createElement("div")); f.firstChild.outerHTML = (`<a href="https://bugs.chromium.org/"></a>`); Fails because a fragment "is not an element node", a completely bogus error. No idea if it fails in Safari, too, since I don't have a Mac anymore, but I'd guess so, since this reeks of the type of corner-cutting that WebKit was guilty of while swimming in accolades for being a fast, standards-compliant browser engine (in contrast to e.g. Gecko).
- lapcat 4y ago
  > a completely bogus error How is it bogus? outerHTML is an attribute of Element https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Element/outerHTML https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Element/out... and DocumentFragment is not an Element https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/DocumentFragment https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/DocumentFra... > No idea if it fails in Safari, too It does. Have you considered that it's just a Gecko quirk that it happens to work in Firefox? Where do the standards say it ought to work?
  - cxr 4y ago
    > How is it bogus? outerHTML is an attribute of Element Re-read what is written. I'm setting the outerHTML property of an element, not setting it for the fragment (which is the only way that your response would make sense). > Have you considered that it's just a Gecko quirk that it happens to work in Firefox? No, because I'm not a moron. > Where do the standards say it ought to work? Exactly where you'd expect to find it: in the specification of the outerHTML property (Leithead et al. DOM Parsing and Serialization, Extensions to the Element interface, §7.1 Attributes: outerHTML. 2016.)
    - lapcat 4y ago
      See the Notes section of the docs: "If the element has no parent element, setting its outerHTML property will not change it or its descendants. Many browsers will also throw an exception." https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Element/outerHTML#notes https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Element/out... The div has a parent node but no parent element, because a document fragment is not an element.
kingboss 4y ago
Laughable take. When there was only IE6 people complained. Now that there is more than one people complain that they have to test their stuff more and wish to go back to one browser to rule them all. You don't like testing? How hard can it be to test on the top 3-4 browsers? Maybe it's not wasted dev time, it's called work? Maybe software industry isn't for you... Sidenote: Why so many snowflakes on HN? Too much entitlement or is it the easy money? In what job is it considered acceptable to not test on half the devices in the world?

realusername 4y ago

Sometimes you can even tell it just from the sentry error text itself that it's a safari bug. It has a kind of distinctive feel of nonsense, I don't know how to explain it.

vlovich123 4y ago

Microsoft went to court over that because they were leveraging their OS monopoly into a browser monopoly. Microsoft always let you install alternatives by the waybut IE was the default and most people don’t change defaults. Apple is not a monopoly unless you’re just looking at mobile profits, which historically is not how a monopoly is defined (they’re not even a monopoly in the luxury smartphone market). Android is actually much closer to being a monopoly and does all sorts of deals to maintain their monopolies on search, browsers, and Android which would warrant investigation. Now maybe a monopoly should be defined as % of total profits in a market? Not sure. It would be breaking new regulatory ground for sure. Also, from the sounds of it, Apple is going to be forced to allow third party browsers and app stores via EU regulation. It’s less clear exactly how that will work and whether that will be available to customers in other jurisdictions.

scarface74 4y ago
I knew this bit of false internet lore was going to come up. Out of all the things that the justice system was throwing at MS, bundling IE was the least of them and absolutely nothing changed about browser bundling in the US. No there was never a browser choice mandate.
- vlovich123 4y ago
  That’s true. The main focus was on forcing OEMs to bundle Windows for kickbacks. The browser stuff came out of the EU.
  - scarface74 4y ago
    As is true with most laws involving tech and the EU. https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2014/12/windows-browser-ballot-comes-to-an-end-as-ec-obligation-expires/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2014/12/windo... > While there were early signs that the browser ballot screen was influencing browser usage in the EU, with Mozilla attributing some European Firefox growth to the selection page, long-term trends strongly suggest that it was next to useless. In spite of equally prominent placement on the selection screen, Opera's share even within Europe appears to have declined over the last five years. So too have Firefox and Internet Explorer. Chrome, however, has experienced significant growth.
411111111111111 4y ago
> Android is actually much closer to being a monopoly Thats only true outside of the US though. iOS is >60% in the USA.
- vlovich123 4y ago
  Not sure where that number comes from. [1] indicates Apple broke 50% for the first time ever in Q3 2022. I doubt they’ve pole vaulted to 60% the past few quarters. [1] https://9to5mac.com/2022/09/02/iphone-us-market-share/ https://9to5mac.com/2022/09/02/iphone-us-market-share/

cxr 4y ago

I've run into a pretty ridiculous Chrome bug: let f = document.createDocumentFragment(); f.appendChild(document.createElement("div")); f.firstChild.outerHTML = (`<a href="https://bugs.chromium.org/"></a>`); Fails because a fragment "is not an element node", a completely bogus error. No idea if it fails in Safari, too, since I don't have a Mac anymore, but I'd guess so, since this reeks of the type of corner-cutting that WebKit was guilty of while swimming in accolades for being a fast, standards-compliant browser engine (in contrast to e.g. Gecko).

lapcat 4y ago
> a completely bogus error How is it bogus? outerHTML is an attribute of Element https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Element/outerHTML https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Element/out... and DocumentFragment is not an Element https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/DocumentFragment https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/DocumentFra... > No idea if it fails in Safari, too It does. Have you considered that it's just a Gecko quirk that it happens to work in Firefox? Where do the standards say it ought to work?
- cxr 4y ago
  > How is it bogus? outerHTML is an attribute of Element Re-read what is written. I'm setting the outerHTML property of an element, not setting it for the fragment (which is the only way that your response would make sense). > Have you considered that it's just a Gecko quirk that it happens to work in Firefox? No, because I'm not a moron. > Where do the standards say it ought to work? Exactly where you'd expect to find it: in the specification of the outerHTML property (Leithead et al. DOM Parsing and Serialization, Extensions to the Element interface, §7.1 Attributes: outerHTML. 2016.)
  - lapcat 4y ago
    See the Notes section of the docs: "If the element has no parent element, setting its outerHTML property will not change it or its descendants. Many browsers will also throw an exception." https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Element/outerHTML#notes https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Element/out... The div has a parent node but no parent element, because a document fragment is not an element.

kingboss 4y ago

Laughable take. When there was only IE6 people complained. Now that there is more than one people complain that they have to test their stuff more and wish to go back to one browser to rule them all. You don't like testing? How hard can it be to test on the top 3-4 browsers? Maybe it's not wasted dev time, it's called work? Maybe software industry isn't for you... Sidenote: Why so many snowflakes on HN? Too much entitlement or is it the easy money? In what job is it considered acceptable to not test on half the devices in the world?