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> that agressive bully was much further west 30+ years ago And Putin wants all of that back. > western europe managed fine then But eastern Europe didn't man

by mcv 4y ago

> that agressive bully was much further west 30+ years ago And Putin wants all of that back. > western europe managed fine then But eastern Europe didn't manage fine, and they're the ones now pushing western Europe into putting more effort into stopping Putin. Western Europe mostly just wants to trade with Putin. This is most visible in Germany of course (technically central Europe, but the old east-west divide is suddenly relevant again), but also France. They've been slow to accept that Putin is not really a trade partner but an aggressor. They ignored it when Putin destroyed Chechnya. They ignored it when he took chunks out of Georgie. They ignored it when Putin took Crimea. Only when he tried to take Donbass did they finally start to see there might be a problem. Meanwhile Poland and the Baltics have been pointing out that Putin is a threat for two decades now. They were undeniably right to join NATO.

medo-bear 4y ago
[flagged]
- mcv 4y ago
  Only Putin wants this war. US, UK, Poland, the Baltics and many other countries want to defend Europe against Russia. Nobody outside Russia would complain if Putin suddenly quit his war and withdrew from Ukraine.
  - medo-bear 4y ago
    us certainly profited nicely from this conflict. i also doubt anyone would complain if us suddenly stopped invading and bombing
    - mcv 4y ago
      How? So far, it's just costing everybody, including the US, a lot of money. What profit is there for the US in having Russia destroy entire Ukrainian cities? If Putin thought the US profited too much from this while his own country suffered, maybe he'd stop his war. But his narrative is that the US and the entire West is suffering just as much as Russia and they'll soon give up, so victory is within sight. It's not of course; it's just bullshit to let him prolong his war for just a bit longer.
      - medo-bear 4y ago
        its so funny when nato fanboys cant see past their own propaganda. here you go the us arms industry profits https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-01-21/us-arms-industry-military-spending-profits-ukraine-war-russia/101843752 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-01-21/us-arms-industry-mili... the us gas industry profits https://www.politico.eu/article/vladimir-putin-war-europe-ukraine-gas-inflation-reduction-act-ira-joe-biden-rift-west-eu-accuses-us-of-profiting-from-war/ https://www.politico.eu/article/vladimir-putin-war-europe-uk... all i did is google "us profits from war in ukraine" also by "us profits" i dont mean the us people profit. the war is costing the us people a lot in the end if ukraine wins they will be so indebted to us and nato that their independence wont be worth the paper its written on. if they lose, well its definitely gonna be shit for them. talk about being stuck between a rock and a hard place, and all for nothing. whats absolute worst for them is if they win on the battle field and putin decides to wipe them off the face of the earth out of spite. somehow the us is managing to convince ukraine that this isnt a possobilty, just like they convinced them that they will join the eu and nato. apparently putin is a very predictable monster with nuclear morals i mean honnestly, this is a question for you, what do you see as a realistic outcome for ukraine?
        mcv 4y ago
        It's not the US convincing Ukraine, it's Ukraine convincing the US. I don't know if you've noticed, but Zelensky is constantly asking, begging, every country to support Ukraine. You're trying to spin this as something the US wants, but it's not. It's something Putin wanted. Zelensky and the people of Ukraine are (obviously) far more determined to defend their country than anyone else. And many European countries are mostly supporting Ukraine because their own citizens are demanding that they do so. There's tons of popular support for Ukraine, because most people recognise the terrible injustice of the Russian invasion and the atrocities committed by Russia. How things will look after the war is impossible to predict, but US support has helped western Europe quite a lot after WW2. And even the defeated enemies of that war, Germany and Japan, are doing extremely well because of the way they've been rebuilt after the war. In the long run, the best outcome for Russia would probably be to be utterly defeated and rebuilt the same way. But of course that can never happen because Russia has nukes.
- hdjjhhvvhga 4y ago
  This is what I often hear on Russian TV. Their narrative is that the war was started bu Ukraine and NATO and Russia is just defending itself. It would be just ridiculous, the problem is I know some people who actually believe it.
  - medo-bear 4y ago
    in 2008 nato said that ukraine will become part of nato. in 2014 the us supported an overthrow of a democraticaly elected ukranian government. i wonder what makes people suspicious
    - hdjjhhvvhga 4y ago
      This makes no sense, the opposite happened: in 2008 NATO refused to take Ukraine in. And a certain lady seems still proud of it.[0] https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20220404-merkel-defends-2008-decision-to-block-ukraine-from-nato https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20220404-merkel-defend...
    - mcv 4y ago
      It was the people of Ukraine who overthrew him because he broke his election promise and moved to make Ukraine a vassal of Russia. That is absolutely the last thing the people of Ukraine want, so they had no choice but to overthrow him. I don't think the US had anything to do with it. The only reason NATO says that some day Ukraine can become a member, is because Ukraine keeps asking about it. Constantly. They desperately want to join NATO, and while they don't and didn't meet NATO's criteria, it's not impossible that some day they will, and then they can join. And considering the consequences of not being in NATO, I think it's clear that Ukraine is absolutely justified in wanting to join NATO. Things would look very different if they had indeed joined in 2008.
      - medo-bear 4y ago
        you seem to be pretty keen to excuse anything nato does. i think nato purpousefully did a series of things to piss russia off and ukranian people are suffering as a result, being stuck between two imperialism. also are you aware that in 2008 the vast majority of ukranian population opposed joining nato. had ukraine joined then the war would have really been over in three days, i think

by mcv 4y ago

medo-bear 4y ago

[flagged]

mcv 4y ago
Only Putin wants this war. US, UK, Poland, the Baltics and many other countries want to defend Europe against Russia. Nobody outside Russia would complain if Putin suddenly quit his war and withdrew from Ukraine.
- medo-bear 4y ago
  us certainly profited nicely from this conflict. i also doubt anyone would complain if us suddenly stopped invading and bombing
  - mcv 4y ago
    How? So far, it's just costing everybody, including the US, a lot of money. What profit is there for the US in having Russia destroy entire Ukrainian cities? If Putin thought the US profited too much from this while his own country suffered, maybe he'd stop his war. But his narrative is that the US and the entire West is suffering just as much as Russia and they'll soon give up, so victory is within sight. It's not of course; it's just bullshit to let him prolong his war for just a bit longer.
    - medo-bear 4y ago
      its so funny when nato fanboys cant see past their own propaganda. here you go the us arms industry profits https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-01-21/us-arms-industry-military-spending-profits-ukraine-war-russia/101843752 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-01-21/us-arms-industry-mili... the us gas industry profits https://www.politico.eu/article/vladimir-putin-war-europe-ukraine-gas-inflation-reduction-act-ira-joe-biden-rift-west-eu-accuses-us-of-profiting-from-war/ https://www.politico.eu/article/vladimir-putin-war-europe-uk... all i did is google "us profits from war in ukraine" also by "us profits" i dont mean the us people profit. the war is costing the us people a lot in the end if ukraine wins they will be so indebted to us and nato that their independence wont be worth the paper its written on. if they lose, well its definitely gonna be shit for them. talk about being stuck between a rock and a hard place, and all for nothing. whats absolute worst for them is if they win on the battle field and putin decides to wipe them off the face of the earth out of spite. somehow the us is managing to convince ukraine that this isnt a possobilty, just like they convinced them that they will join the eu and nato. apparently putin is a very predictable monster with nuclear morals i mean honnestly, this is a question for you, what do you see as a realistic outcome for ukraine?
      - mcv 4y ago
        It's not the US convincing Ukraine, it's Ukraine convincing the US. I don't know if you've noticed, but Zelensky is constantly asking, begging, every country to support Ukraine. You're trying to spin this as something the US wants, but it's not. It's something Putin wanted. Zelensky and the people of Ukraine are (obviously) far more determined to defend their country than anyone else. And many European countries are mostly supporting Ukraine because their own citizens are demanding that they do so. There's tons of popular support for Ukraine, because most people recognise the terrible injustice of the Russian invasion and the atrocities committed by Russia. How things will look after the war is impossible to predict, but US support has helped western Europe quite a lot after WW2. And even the defeated enemies of that war, Germany and Japan, are doing extremely well because of the way they've been rebuilt after the war. In the long run, the best outcome for Russia would probably be to be utterly defeated and rebuilt the same way. But of course that can never happen because Russia has nukes.
hdjjhhvvhga 4y ago
This is what I often hear on Russian TV. Their narrative is that the war was started bu Ukraine and NATO and Russia is just defending itself. It would be just ridiculous, the problem is I know some people who actually believe it.
- medo-bear 4y ago
  in 2008 nato said that ukraine will become part of nato. in 2014 the us supported an overthrow of a democraticaly elected ukranian government. i wonder what makes people suspicious
  - hdjjhhvvhga 4y ago
    This makes no sense, the opposite happened: in 2008 NATO refused to take Ukraine in. And a certain lady seems still proud of it.[0] https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20220404-merkel-defends-2008-decision-to-block-ukraine-from-nato https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20220404-merkel-defend...
  - mcv 4y ago
    It was the people of Ukraine who overthrew him because he broke his election promise and moved to make Ukraine a vassal of Russia. That is absolutely the last thing the people of Ukraine want, so they had no choice but to overthrow him. I don't think the US had anything to do with it. The only reason NATO says that some day Ukraine can become a member, is because Ukraine keeps asking about it. Constantly. They desperately want to join NATO, and while they don't and didn't meet NATO's criteria, it's not impossible that some day they will, and then they can join. And considering the consequences of not being in NATO, I think it's clear that Ukraine is absolutely justified in wanting to join NATO. Things would look very different if they had indeed joined in 2008.
    - medo-bear 4y ago
      you seem to be pretty keen to excuse anything nato does. i think nato purpousefully did a series of things to piss russia off and ukranian people are suffering as a result, being stuck between two imperialism. also are you aware that in 2008 the vast majority of ukranian population opposed joining nato. had ukraine joined then the war would have really been over in three days, i think