5 ms·

Why Task Manager appears slower when you start it from the Ctrl+Alt+Del dialog?

52 points by girishmony 15y ago

drKarl 15y ago
Why not just using Ctrl+Shift+Esc?
- AndrewDucker 15y ago
  Because most people don't know all the keyboard shortcuts. Casual users hunt about for stuff, they don't go and look up what the shortcuts are.
  - jgroome 15y ago
    I'd argue that if most casual users see something isn't immediately available then they assume it's not there at all.
    - a_a_r_o_n 15y ago
      If most casual users see something isn't immediately available, then it is not there. For example, there is almost nothing on the MS Office Ribbon.
- keeperofdakeys 15y ago
  People are used to Ctrl+Alt+Delete, that brought up the task manager in Windows XP when using the welcome screen (the classic login gives the same behaviour as Vista and 7, although it is a window, and not a screen). Then, considering keyboard shortcuts aren't discoverable, a lot of people probably don't know about Ctrl+Shift+Esc.
  - philbarr 15y ago
    I own up that I didn't know about Ctrl+Alt+Esc. Although I'm very happy that I do now...
    - conradfr 15y ago
      You learn it when you need the task manager of a remote server in Terminal Server.
  - yread 15y ago
    Also in win95, 98 and ME. In fact, there it directly opened the Close Program dialog
    - andrewf 15y ago
      Not quite the same. Unlike taskman, the Close Program dialog appeared on a screen by itself and all the other programs are suspended.
      - yread 15y ago
        That's very true. I was mentioning it as a reason why (some of the older) folks use Ctrl+Alt+Del as a way to shut down programs.
- brudgers 15y ago
  CTL-ALT-DEL has been the way to attempt reset via keyboard for almost 30 years. There is no telling what has been mapped to other keyboard combinations by the millions of applications which may be running under Windows.
jamesaguilar 15y ago
I love how this guy always pretends that nonintuitive things are completely obvious, even when they are actually the furthest thing from it. Definitely edifying to read his blog but I don't get the sense that he has much respect for his users, or to put it another way, a that he has an accurate perspective on how reality differs from people's expectations. Clearly that's going to be slower, you doofus. It's almost as dumb as asking why an international package takes longer to arrive than a domestic one. What are you, some kind of moron?
- DrJokepu 15y ago
  This is the characteristic style of Raymond Chen. He is, in fact, a super clever genius and these things are actually completely obvious for him. I think his blog is a good reflection of the internal culture at Microsoft, and I mean a bunch of really clever people living in a bubble. And this post is nothing compared to some of his really technical posts. They're all very interesting reads however.
  - code_duck 15y ago
    The answer he gave is only apparent due to his knowledge of Windows internals. He may or may not be a super clever genius... there's no way intuition or logic would have suggested the answer supplied.
    - sriramk 15y ago
      As someone who knows Raymond personally and his body of work at Microsoft, I can attest to the genius part. His exploits in the Win95 days ( as one example), is part of MSFT mythology.
      - code_duck 15y ago
        Surely, I've read his blog and agree he's as sharp a cookie as cookies get. I'm trying to refer only to conclusions that could be drawn from this circumstance.
- 15y ago
AndrewDucker 15y ago
What's interesting here is that I don't think most people think of the Winlogon screen as being in a separate user space than the main desktop. I mean, it has to be, because it can switch users, but I don't think it's intuitively obvious.
- bwarp 15y ago
  They did a good job of hiding it all from the user if you ask me. Windows' security model is actually extremely robust and handles this sort of stuff really well. Take a look at this for a description of how it all works underneath the hood: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jonathan.deboynepollard/FGA/windows-nt-session.html http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jonathan.deboynepollard/FGA/win... I think people forget to give Windows a lot of credit that it is due.
  - AndrewDucker 15y ago
    Oh, absolutely. They don't know, and they don't need to know, unless they're wondering why it's slightly slower to go via winlogon to launch the process viewer. And thanks for the link - that was fascinating. What a shame they bodged it the first time around and had to hack things to make it work!
    - freehunter 15y ago
      And then when they work from (nearly) the ground up to fix it all, they catch all kinds of hell from Internet folk.
  - code_duck 15y ago
    They did a good job of hiding it, yes. Unfortunately this is not something I want to be hidden from me.
ttt_ 15y ago
>> Clearly, in order to get Task Manager running on your desktop with your credentials, winlogon needs to change its security context, change desktops, and then launch taskmgr.exe. My question then would be why is that option even present on the "wrong security context"? I don't really see how it fits the other options present in that context. It's probably there just because they felt bad alienating the users that were used to the shortcut. So they creep in functionality into a well known keyboard shortcut, then make the well known original functionality worst because of the new functionality. Then enters this guy and blames you for doing it wrong.
- asomiv 15y ago
  If winlogon runs in the same security context and the same desktop as explorer.exe then a key logger will be able to intercept all logins, and a screenshotter will be able to take screenshots of your login screen. Clearly you don't want that to be possible. Or are you saying that they never should have made Ctrl-Alt-Del do anything else but starting the task manager?
  - ttt_ 15y ago
    >> Or are you saying that they never should have made Ctrl-Alt-Del do anything else but starting the task manager? That's what I'm saying. Not that they shouldn't have made it do anything else per se. But that by doing so, the other features caused a negative effect on the main feature. Ctrl-Alt-Del didn't have anything to do with logon or accounts or security, just task manager. Winlogon stuff should have had a different shortcut altogether, maybe Win-Alt-Del.
    - andrewf 15y ago
      Wikipedia has more details, but essentially, in the Windows NT line bringing up all the security options has always been what Ctrl-Alt-Del does, with the task manager sometimes being presented as an option. Since about 1993. Jumping straight to the task manager was something that happened under limited circumstances (fast user switching enabled, computer unattached to a domain) in Windows XP only.
pasbesoin 15y ago
When on Windows, I just leave an instance of Process Explorer running. My own machines I have set to fire it up upon boot. (These are not servers.) http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/bb896653 http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/bb896653
strictfp 15y ago
> ..it's like sending a package internationally... If it's a local package, why put it in the international mail box in the first place?
- joenathan 15y ago
  Because winlogon is foreign ground and your desktop is domestic, ctrl+alt+del takes you to foreign ground.

52 points by girishmony 15y ago

drKarl 15y ago

Why not just using Ctrl+Shift+Esc?

AndrewDucker 15y ago
Because most people don't know all the keyboard shortcuts. Casual users hunt about for stuff, they don't go and look up what the shortcuts are.
- jgroome 15y ago
  I'd argue that if most casual users see something isn't immediately available then they assume it's not there at all.
  - a_a_r_o_n 15y ago
    If most casual users see something isn't immediately available, then it is not there. For example, there is almost nothing on the MS Office Ribbon.
keeperofdakeys 15y ago
People are used to Ctrl+Alt+Delete, that brought up the task manager in Windows XP when using the welcome screen (the classic login gives the same behaviour as Vista and 7, although it is a window, and not a screen). Then, considering keyboard shortcuts aren't discoverable, a lot of people probably don't know about Ctrl+Shift+Esc.
- philbarr 15y ago
  I own up that I didn't know about Ctrl+Alt+Esc. Although I'm very happy that I do now...
  - conradfr 15y ago
    You learn it when you need the task manager of a remote server in Terminal Server.
- yread 15y ago
  Also in win95, 98 and ME. In fact, there it directly opened the Close Program dialog
  - andrewf 15y ago
    Not quite the same. Unlike taskman, the Close Program dialog appeared on a screen by itself and all the other programs are suspended.
    - yread 15y ago
      That's very true. I was mentioning it as a reason why (some of the older) folks use Ctrl+Alt+Del as a way to shut down programs.
brudgers 15y ago
CTL-ALT-DEL has been the way to attempt reset via keyboard for almost 30 years. There is no telling what has been mapped to other keyboard combinations by the millions of applications which may be running under Windows.

jamesaguilar 15y ago

I love how this guy always pretends that nonintuitive things are completely obvious, even when they are actually the furthest thing from it. Definitely edifying to read his blog but I don't get the sense that he has much respect for his users, or to put it another way, a that he has an accurate perspective on how reality differs from people's expectations. Clearly that's going to be slower, you doofus. It's almost as dumb as asking why an international package takes longer to arrive than a domestic one. What are you, some kind of moron?

DrJokepu 15y ago
This is the characteristic style of Raymond Chen. He is, in fact, a super clever genius and these things are actually completely obvious for him. I think his blog is a good reflection of the internal culture at Microsoft, and I mean a bunch of really clever people living in a bubble. And this post is nothing compared to some of his really technical posts. They're all very interesting reads however.
- code_duck 15y ago
  The answer he gave is only apparent due to his knowledge of Windows internals. He may or may not be a super clever genius... there's no way intuition or logic would have suggested the answer supplied.
  - sriramk 15y ago
    As someone who knows Raymond personally and his body of work at Microsoft, I can attest to the genius part. His exploits in the Win95 days ( as one example), is part of MSFT mythology.
    - code_duck 15y ago
      Surely, I've read his blog and agree he's as sharp a cookie as cookies get. I'm trying to refer only to conclusions that could be drawn from this circumstance.
15y ago

AndrewDucker 15y ago

What's interesting here is that I don't think most people think of the Winlogon screen as being in a separate user space than the main desktop. I mean, it has to be, because it can switch users, but I don't think it's intuitively obvious.

bwarp 15y ago
They did a good job of hiding it all from the user if you ask me. Windows' security model is actually extremely robust and handles this sort of stuff really well. Take a look at this for a description of how it all works underneath the hood: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jonathan.deboynepollard/FGA/windows-nt-session.html http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jonathan.deboynepollard/FGA/win... I think people forget to give Windows a lot of credit that it is due.
- AndrewDucker 15y ago
  Oh, absolutely. They don't know, and they don't need to know, unless they're wondering why it's slightly slower to go via winlogon to launch the process viewer. And thanks for the link - that was fascinating. What a shame they bodged it the first time around and had to hack things to make it work!
  - freehunter 15y ago
    And then when they work from (nearly) the ground up to fix it all, they catch all kinds of hell from Internet folk.
- code_duck 15y ago
  They did a good job of hiding it, yes. Unfortunately this is not something I want to be hidden from me.

ttt_ 15y ago

>> Clearly, in order to get Task Manager running on your desktop with your credentials, winlogon needs to change its security context, change desktops, and then launch taskmgr.exe. My question then would be why is that option even present on the "wrong security context"? I don't really see how it fits the other options present in that context. It's probably there just because they felt bad alienating the users that were used to the shortcut. So they creep in functionality into a well known keyboard shortcut, then make the well known original functionality worst because of the new functionality. Then enters this guy and blames you for doing it wrong.

asomiv 15y ago
If winlogon runs in the same security context and the same desktop as explorer.exe then a key logger will be able to intercept all logins, and a screenshotter will be able to take screenshots of your login screen. Clearly you don't want that to be possible. Or are you saying that they never should have made Ctrl-Alt-Del do anything else but starting the task manager?
- ttt_ 15y ago
  >> Or are you saying that they never should have made Ctrl-Alt-Del do anything else but starting the task manager? That's what I'm saying. Not that they shouldn't have made it do anything else per se. But that by doing so, the other features caused a negative effect on the main feature. Ctrl-Alt-Del didn't have anything to do with logon or accounts or security, just task manager. Winlogon stuff should have had a different shortcut altogether, maybe Win-Alt-Del.
  - andrewf 15y ago
    Wikipedia has more details, but essentially, in the Windows NT line bringing up all the security options has always been what Ctrl-Alt-Del does, with the task manager sometimes being presented as an option. Since about 1993. Jumping straight to the task manager was something that happened under limited circumstances (fast user switching enabled, computer unattached to a domain) in Windows XP only.

pasbesoin 15y ago

When on Windows, I just leave an instance of Process Explorer running. My own machines I have set to fire it up upon boot. (These are not servers.) http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/bb896653 http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/bb896653

strictfp 15y ago

> ..it's like sending a package internationally... If it's a local package, why put it in the international mail box in the first place?

joenathan 15y ago
Because winlogon is foreign ground and your desktop is domestic, ctrl+alt+del takes you to foreign ground.