4 ms·

Parisian here, for context I've been cycling to work for about 10 years now (before Paris transformed into a cycle-friendly city). There are a lot of speculati

by Fradow 4y ago

Parisian here, for context I've been cycling to work for about 10 years now (before Paris transformed into a cycle-friendly city). There are a lot of speculations and hypothesis from people who don't live in Paris and try to apply their experience in a different city to Paris, so allow me to offer the experience (obviously I'm biased) of someone living there. The first big misconception is that this ban is only due to elderly going to vote. While the 90% percentage is indeed skewed, recent polls from before the vote showed that about 60% of the population approve of this ban. It's not as overwhelming, but still a majority. People are fed up with rental e-scooters, but why? Not because they are littered everywhere. It's not longer the case. There are dedicated e-scooters parking spots, that are overall used properly (though they are often on the floor due to wind or being knocked down). The article talks about "tightening regulations", I'm pretty sure there are rules enforcing that. The real reason is that anytime you see someone egregiously disregarding rules in a way that endanger others, it's more often than not a rental e-scooter, with rental e-bikes coming behind. They are perceived as dangerous, plain and simple. And it's not a lack of cycling infrastructure. While it's not up to Netherlands-level of bike-friendliness yet, it's quite good lately overall. Now a last misconception is that this ban is bad because people will revert to cars. No they won't. In the first place, people riding rental e-scooters do not replace a car trip by a rental e-scooter trip, they don't even own one for the most part (or even have a driving license). What is replaced is a subway, bus, bike, or walking trip. Perhaps on some rare occasions a taxi/Uber. Apart from that last rare occasion, all other alternatives are MORE eco-friendly than the e-scooters.

tallanvor 4y ago
> What is replaced is a subway, bus, bike, or walking trip. Perhaps on some rare occasions a taxi/Uber. Apart from that last rare occasion, all other alternatives are MORE eco-friendly than the e-scooters. I firmly believe that people running the scooter rental companies know that they can only succeed by destroying public transit. A survey in Norway showed that over half of the trips on rental scooters replaced public transit, and less than 10% replaced trips in private cars. The detrimental affects on public transit, the relatively high injury rates, the disregard the riders have for the blind and handicapped who have to navigate around the scooters being left in the middle of the sidewalk, and just the sense of urban blight from them being left everywhere all add up to enough reason to ban the things.
- 908B64B197 4y ago
  > that over half of the trips on rental scooters replaced public transit, and less than 10% replaced trips in private cars. But did it improve travel time?
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago
  > survey in Norway showed that over half of the trips on rental scooters replaced public transit, and less than 10% replaced trips in private cars I’d be careful about extrapolating these results across cities. In most American cities, for example, I’m going to replace an e-scooter with an Uber.
  - TheHappyOddish 4y ago
    Most of the modern world has common public transport, the US is a weird edge case.
    - RestlessMind 4y ago
      You clearly haven't explored the modern world then. Or may have visited 3-5 cities and think you have seen it all. Some non-US metro areas where I found public transport to be inadequate based on my travels in the last 3-4 months - Toronto, Vancouver, Bangalore, Mumbai.
      - TheHappyOddish 4y ago
        I've been to over 20 countries, many of which I'd consider modern world. I would have been to > 80 cities. I spent months in both Vancouver and Torono without a car, and both have perfectly workable public transport systems, with Toronto's being a bit better. Both are better than every US city I've been to, and scooters replace neither. India is a third world country with a pretty low standard of living. I haven't been to Bangalore or Mumbai, but I can't imagine them being relevant to this discussion.
        4y ago
dijit 4y ago
> Now a last misconception is that this ban is bad because people will revert to cars. No they won't. In the first place, people riding rental e-scooters do not replace a car trip by a rental e-scooter trip This is a hard one to qualify completely. There is a lot of statistical evidence that infers that greater usage of e-Scooters and e-Bikes decreases car traffic. That may not be the case in Paris (and I can definitely see that being true) but it does go against everything we know statistically. There are other points though, "last mile" is a difficult problem, it's not solved with bicycles (they are too onerous to take on public transport, and they are a huge target of theft), it's not solved with rental bicycles either (they are usually very few and far between). Last-mile is most likely solved with personal e-scooters as they are much more acceptable to take on public transport and can be taken inside so they are a lot less steal-able. The problem with this is that personal e-scooters are significantly less regulated than the "all-seeing-eye" rental ones which impose restrictions on speed (20kph in Sweden, personal vehicles can be modified to go 30kph, legal maximum is 25kph and personal e-scooters all go this speed -- with no slow zones anywhere)
- Fradow 4y ago
  That one is specifically for Paris as seen by a Parisian. I would not argue that's the case globally, and there are certainly studies showing otherwise in other contexts. Usage of e-scooter and e-bikes decreases car traffic yes. But does banning rental e-scooter (not personal e-scooters, and not e-bikes) lead to an increase in car traffic? In Paris, I argue that no it won't, or if it does it will be negligible. > There are other points though, "last mile" is a difficult problem That's not true in Paris. Paris has very good public transportation. There are bus and subway stations everywhere. It's not the case outside of Paris intra-muros, but here I'm specifically talking about Paris intra-muros, because the ban only apply to that location. > it's not solved with rental bicycles either (they are usually very few and far between). That's not true in Paris. The city rental bicycles are omnipresent and cheap. Even though I own a good bike, I use those as well, in cases I don't want to take my own bike. And there are other rental e-bikes (by the same company that do rental e-scooters) In general, personal e-scooters are considered fine. Their owners don't behave nearly as bad as rental e-scooters. The speed limit, as far as I know, is the same for any e-bike/e-scooter: 25km/h. Otherwise it's in a different class (same as a moped) and is no longer allowed on bike lanes (which doesn't prevent people from doing so, but so far they are few and far between).
michael_vo 4y ago
As a tourist in Paris I found scooters really convenient to get around the city. But I also hated them for their aesthetics as they would be littered everywhere and knocked over. I definitely saw so many dangerous driving behaviours. I think tourists using scooters aren't treating these like useful day to day transport vehicles but as a way to have fun. For a lot of people it's their first time on a scooter. I saw people zooming through red lights into oncoming traffic. Others tried to jump the curb. It's kind of like giving a kid a toy for the first time.
enlyth 4y ago
If you look at accident statistics, they are indeed dangerous. My friend broke his arm while riding one, and he's far from a careless rider, so I found some statistics, which made me realize that maybe we shouldn't let people ride these around town willy-nilly: https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/reported-road-casualties-great-britain-e-scooter-factsheet-2021/reported-road-casualties-great-britain-e-scooter-factsheet-2021 https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/reported-road-casua...
eloisant 4y ago
> There are a lot of speculations and hypothesis from people who don't live in Paris and try to apply their experience in a different city to Paris, so allow me to offer the experience (obviously I'm biased) of someone living there. So you're saying, compared to other cities, Paris' problem is parisians? And e-scooter don't work because parisians can't be bothered to be civil?
- tuetuopay 4y ago
  As we say in France, the problem with Paris are the Parisians.
apichat 4y ago
> The real reason is that anytime you see someone egregiously disregarding rules in a way that endanger others, it's more often than not a rental e-scooter, with rental e-bikes coming behind. They are perceived as dangerous, plain and simple. And it's not a lack of cycling infrastructure. While it's not up to Netherlands-level of bike-friendliness yet, it's quite good lately overall. Parisian too, but with reality in mind. We should first reduced by 95% the amount of cars and ban taxis : Cars, Taxis and Motorcycle killed thousands of people in Paris due to there toxic gases. https://www.francebleu.fr/infos/transports/a-paris-la-pollution-automobile-tue-plus-de-2500-personnes-par-1611135291 https://www.francebleu.fr/infos/transports/a-paris-la-pollut... More than 95% of people killed on the road are due to Cars, Taxis, Trucks or Motorcycle. https://www.drieat.ile-de-france.developpement-durable.gouv.fr/IMG/pdf/bilan_securite_routiere_2021_net.pdf https://www.drieat.ile-de-france.developpement-durable.gouv.... More than 95% of serious injuries are caused by Cars, Taxis, Trucks or Motorcycle. https://www.onisr.securite-routiere.gouv.fr/sites/default/files/2022-09/ONISR_Bilan_Accidentalit%C3%A9_2021_0.pdf https://www.onisr.securite-routiere.gouv.fr/sites/default/fi... 50% of the streets are congested with cars and car parking. https://www.lemonde.fr/les-decodeurs/article/2016/11/30/a-paris-la-moitie-de-l-espace-public-est-reservee-a-l-automobile_5040857_4355770.html https://www.lemonde.fr/les-decodeurs/article/2016/11/30/a-pa...
- Fradow 4y ago
  > Parisian too, but with reality in mind. We should first reduced by 95% the amount of cars and ban taxis Oh I agree with that, but we can do both! First link => that's an ongoing project with Crit'air restrictions. Link is 2 years old, Crit'Air 4 have been banned since then (though enforcement is low). And newer cars emit a lot less of pollution. Second link => that's Ile-de-France and not Paris. That's why I was careful to specify Paris. Ile-de-France as whole is a lot more sprawling, so there is less alternatives to cars. Skimming it, it seems to support your argument even for Paris though, but I have a hard time to find the exact percentage. I'd be curious what's the actual number for Paris only nowadays. Third link => that's for France as a whole. I did not skim it. Fourth link => that's from 2016. I'm pretty sure it has evolved a bit since then. Numerous cycle lanes have been created since then, and parking/car lanes removed. Though that's still an ongoing project. I'd be really curious about updated numbers.

by Fradow 4y ago

tallanvor 4y ago

> What is replaced is a subway, bus, bike, or walking trip. Perhaps on some rare occasions a taxi/Uber. Apart from that last rare occasion, all other alternatives are MORE eco-friendly than the e-scooters. I firmly believe that people running the scooter rental companies know that they can only succeed by destroying public transit. A survey in Norway showed that over half of the trips on rental scooters replaced public transit, and less than 10% replaced trips in private cars. The detrimental affects on public transit, the relatively high injury rates, the disregard the riders have for the blind and handicapped who have to navigate around the scooters being left in the middle of the sidewalk, and just the sense of urban blight from them being left everywhere all add up to enough reason to ban the things.

908B64B197 4y ago
> that over half of the trips on rental scooters replaced public transit, and less than 10% replaced trips in private cars. But did it improve travel time?
JumpCrisscross 4y ago
> survey in Norway showed that over half of the trips on rental scooters replaced public transit, and less than 10% replaced trips in private cars I’d be careful about extrapolating these results across cities. In most American cities, for example, I’m going to replace an e-scooter with an Uber.
- TheHappyOddish 4y ago
  Most of the modern world has common public transport, the US is a weird edge case.
  - RestlessMind 4y ago
    You clearly haven't explored the modern world then. Or may have visited 3-5 cities and think you have seen it all. Some non-US metro areas where I found public transport to be inadequate based on my travels in the last 3-4 months - Toronto, Vancouver, Bangalore, Mumbai.
    - TheHappyOddish 4y ago
      I've been to over 20 countries, many of which I'd consider modern world. I would have been to > 80 cities. I spent months in both Vancouver and Torono without a car, and both have perfectly workable public transport systems, with Toronto's being a bit better. Both are better than every US city I've been to, and scooters replace neither. India is a third world country with a pretty low standard of living. I haven't been to Bangalore or Mumbai, but I can't imagine them being relevant to this discussion.
      - 4y ago

dijit 4y ago

> Now a last misconception is that this ban is bad because people will revert to cars. No they won't. In the first place, people riding rental e-scooters do not replace a car trip by a rental e-scooter trip This is a hard one to qualify completely. There is a lot of statistical evidence that infers that greater usage of e-Scooters and e-Bikes decreases car traffic. That may not be the case in Paris (and I can definitely see that being true) but it does go against everything we know statistically. There are other points though, "last mile" is a difficult problem, it's not solved with bicycles (they are too onerous to take on public transport, and they are a huge target of theft), it's not solved with rental bicycles either (they are usually very few and far between). Last-mile is most likely solved with personal e-scooters as they are much more acceptable to take on public transport and can be taken inside so they are a lot less steal-able. The problem with this is that personal e-scooters are significantly less regulated than the "all-seeing-eye" rental ones which impose restrictions on speed (20kph in Sweden, personal vehicles can be modified to go 30kph, legal maximum is 25kph and personal e-scooters all go this speed -- with no slow zones anywhere)

Fradow 4y ago
That one is specifically for Paris as seen by a Parisian. I would not argue that's the case globally, and there are certainly studies showing otherwise in other contexts. Usage of e-scooter and e-bikes decreases car traffic yes. But does banning rental e-scooter (not personal e-scooters, and not e-bikes) lead to an increase in car traffic? In Paris, I argue that no it won't, or if it does it will be negligible. > There are other points though, "last mile" is a difficult problem That's not true in Paris. Paris has very good public transportation. There are bus and subway stations everywhere. It's not the case outside of Paris intra-muros, but here I'm specifically talking about Paris intra-muros, because the ban only apply to that location. > it's not solved with rental bicycles either (they are usually very few and far between). That's not true in Paris. The city rental bicycles are omnipresent and cheap. Even though I own a good bike, I use those as well, in cases I don't want to take my own bike. And there are other rental e-bikes (by the same company that do rental e-scooters) In general, personal e-scooters are considered fine. Their owners don't behave nearly as bad as rental e-scooters. The speed limit, as far as I know, is the same for any e-bike/e-scooter: 25km/h. Otherwise it's in a different class (same as a moped) and is no longer allowed on bike lanes (which doesn't prevent people from doing so, but so far they are few and far between).

michael_vo 4y ago

As a tourist in Paris I found scooters really convenient to get around the city. But I also hated them for their aesthetics as they would be littered everywhere and knocked over. I definitely saw so many dangerous driving behaviours. I think tourists using scooters aren't treating these like useful day to day transport vehicles but as a way to have fun. For a lot of people it's their first time on a scooter. I saw people zooming through red lights into oncoming traffic. Others tried to jump the curb. It's kind of like giving a kid a toy for the first time.

enlyth 4y ago

If you look at accident statistics, they are indeed dangerous. My friend broke his arm while riding one, and he's far from a careless rider, so I found some statistics, which made me realize that maybe we shouldn't let people ride these around town willy-nilly: https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/reported-road-casualties-great-britain-e-scooter-factsheet-2021/reported-road-casualties-great-britain-e-scooter-factsheet-2021 https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/reported-road-casua...

eloisant 4y ago

> There are a lot of speculations and hypothesis from people who don't live in Paris and try to apply their experience in a different city to Paris, so allow me to offer the experience (obviously I'm biased) of someone living there. So you're saying, compared to other cities, Paris' problem is parisians? And e-scooter don't work because parisians can't be bothered to be civil?

tuetuopay 4y ago
As we say in France, the problem with Paris are the Parisians.

apichat 4y ago

> The real reason is that anytime you see someone egregiously disregarding rules in a way that endanger others, it's more often than not a rental e-scooter, with rental e-bikes coming behind. They are perceived as dangerous, plain and simple. And it's not a lack of cycling infrastructure. While it's not up to Netherlands-level of bike-friendliness yet, it's quite good lately overall. Parisian too, but with reality in mind. We should first reduced by 95% the amount of cars and ban taxis : Cars, Taxis and Motorcycle killed thousands of people in Paris due to there toxic gases. https://www.francebleu.fr/infos/transports/a-paris-la-pollution-automobile-tue-plus-de-2500-personnes-par-1611135291 https://www.francebleu.fr/infos/transports/a-paris-la-pollut... More than 95% of people killed on the road are due to Cars, Taxis, Trucks or Motorcycle. https://www.drieat.ile-de-france.developpement-durable.gouv.fr/IMG/pdf/bilan_securite_routiere_2021_net.pdf https://www.drieat.ile-de-france.developpement-durable.gouv.... More than 95% of serious injuries are caused by Cars, Taxis, Trucks or Motorcycle. https://www.onisr.securite-routiere.gouv.fr/sites/default/files/2022-09/ONISR_Bilan_Accidentalit%C3%A9_2021_0.pdf https://www.onisr.securite-routiere.gouv.fr/sites/default/fi... 50% of the streets are congested with cars and car parking. https://www.lemonde.fr/les-decodeurs/article/2016/11/30/a-paris-la-moitie-de-l-espace-public-est-reservee-a-l-automobile_5040857_4355770.html https://www.lemonde.fr/les-decodeurs/article/2016/11/30/a-pa...

Fradow 4y ago
> Parisian too, but with reality in mind. We should first reduced by 95% the amount of cars and ban taxis Oh I agree with that, but we can do both! First link => that's an ongoing project with Crit'air restrictions. Link is 2 years old, Crit'Air 4 have been banned since then (though enforcement is low). And newer cars emit a lot less of pollution. Second link => that's Ile-de-France and not Paris. That's why I was careful to specify Paris. Ile-de-France as whole is a lot more sprawling, so there is less alternatives to cars. Skimming it, it seems to support your argument even for Paris though, but I have a hard time to find the exact percentage. I'd be curious what's the actual number for Paris only nowadays. Third link => that's for France as a whole. I did not skim it. Fourth link => that's from 2016. I'm pretty sure it has evolved a bit since then. Numerous cycle lanes have been created since then, and parking/car lanes removed. Though that's still an ongoing project. I'd be really curious about updated numbers.