5 ms·

Wait, so on weekends you can drive a car around but you cannot get the bus or a train? if so that's crazy.

aflag 4y ago
The public transport is operated by the government. They consider no one should work on Saturdays so they don't run their services then. I think if using your private car was forbidden it would've been even crazier.
- hoseja 4y ago
  Well, it IS forbidden, no? Just not banned by the government.
  - midasuni 4y ago
    It’s forbidden to carry the car keys, let alone drive the car. But Jewish people do seem to be good at creating loopholes — it’s forbidden to press the button for the elevator, so the elevator stops at every floor so you don’t need to. It’s forbidden to turn on the oven, so the timer will turn it on for you. It’s forbidden to push you child in a buggy, so there’s a wire out up around the neighbourhood to make it not forbidden. It’s quite amusing really
    - zirgs 4y ago
      https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/91594/theres-wire-above-manhattan-youve-probably-never-noticed https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/91594/theres-wire-above-... There's a wire around Manhattan. And it costs 100k a year to maintain it.
      - TheHappyOddish 4y ago
        > The eruv encircles much of Manhattan, acting as a symbolic boundary that turns the very public streets of the city into a private space, much like one's own home. This allows people to freely communicate and socialize on the Sabbath—and carry whatever they please—without having to worry about breaking Jewish law. This article seems to assume a lot of existing knowledge about Jewish "laws". To provide further information (from a quick bit of research), it appears that Jews cannot transfer items "between domains" on the Sabbath, effectively they can't take an item from a private place to a public place, or another private place. The rules appear to get very complx and specific[0], but basically it appears to be a way of Jewish people cheating on the rules by choosing to interpret as liberally as possible ("if we put a wire in a square around our houses and the street between and you, me and the government agree it's only one house today, then we've ticked the box"). How delightfully bizare. I can't imagine God at judgement time going "Well you got me on a technicality, head on up you cheeky rascals", but I guess they know him better than me. 0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eruv https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eruv
        lotsofpulp 4y ago
        > How delightfully bizare. I can't imagine God at judgement time going "Well you got me on a technicality, head on up you cheeky rascals", but I guess they know him better than me. It has nothing to do with “God”. It is a show of allegiance to the tribe. Everyone knows the rule and loophole is nonsense, but they play along to display that they are still wanting the tribal affiliation even though they do not want to follow all the tribal rules, and so put in some effort to getting around them to earn their “freedom” while still being able to claim allegiance to the other tribe members. A lot of the answers to “why” for things that are obviously simple inconveniences with no utility to the individual or expenses that seemingly benefit no one are a form of sacrifice to show loyalty to a group. In fact, the more sacrificial something is, the better the signaling. In this case, giving up some money offsets not actually sacrificing the freedom to do what you want.
        WJW 4y ago
        > I can't imagine God at judgement time going "Well you got me on a technicality, head on up you cheeky rascals", but I guess they know him better than me. The reasoning goes like this: - God is perfect and omniscient. - The Jewish laws come pretty much directly from God. - Therefore the law is perfect as written, because to assume that a mortal could ever find an error in the laws of a perfect God would be an act of the purest hubris. - Therefore there are no unintentional loopholes, because God is perfect. Any "loopholes" were put in there on purpose by God, as Easter eggs or as rewards for those who studied diligently enough to notice them. - Therefore any "loopholes" which stand the test of time (and with that the thorough inspection of other experts of Jewish law) are to be celebrated. They were surely found by a person with great knowledge of the Holy Book, which is to be admired. So yes, in the Jewish perspective God would indeed go something "you got me on a technicality, well done!" when judgement day comes. I'm not sure if I agree, but I do admire the internal consistency of the belief. It does seem pretty heretical to presume you know better than the actual Bible after all, and surely an omnipotent and omniscient God is capable of writing down exactly what He means.
        TheHappyOddish 4y ago
        Ok, I do respect that chain of logic. I've never really associated rationalism with organised religion, maybe I've been looking at it wrong!
  - WJW 4y ago
    Not everyone in Israel is Jewish, and not all those of the Jewish ethnic group practice the religious beliefs. There are plenty of people in Israel who enjoy a good bacon sandwich for example, and there are plenty who drive their cars around on shabat. However the religious parties managed to capture the government for decades and have forbidden the national bus and trains companies to drive around Jews and non-Jews alike on Saturdays.
  - edanm 4y ago
    I'm not sure what you mean by "forbidden". It's not illegal. Is it forbidden by Jewish law? Yes. But this only applies to whoever decides to keep it. Most of the Israeli population doesn't keep Shabbat, so they have no problem driving their car around. (Similarly Jews and Muslims may decide to keep Kosher while living in the States, that's a personal choice.)
lozenge 4y ago
Yep, it's a significant contributor to car culture as once you have a car you start using it for trips that could be done using walking. And everybody needs a car to be mobile on Shabbat unless they can pay for taxis with a surcharge or are actually religious.
- golemiprague 4y ago
  [dead]
Symbiote 4y ago
The Outer Hebrides (islands) of Scotland had a similar situation. The ferry used not to run on Sundays, and there were protests when Sunday service began. However, the airport operated flights on Sunday, so if you could afford it you could still e.g. visit family for the weekend and return to the mainland in time for work on Monday. There are still no buses on Sunday, although there seem to be very few Monday-Saturday so that might not be entirely due to religious indoctrination.
- dolmen 4y ago
  The religious indoctrination is that people (including bus drivers or ferry operators) should have a rest day with their family (everybody has the same rest day). Whether it is really religious or just good sense is left to your appreciation.
  - pharmakom 4y ago
    Usually companies establish a rotation where some work Saturday and some work Sunday but nobody works both.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
WJW 4y ago
Well. You are legally allowed to drive a car around, but will still get stones thrown at your car if you do so in an ultra-orthodox neighborhood.
- saiya-jin 4y ago
  Even at random stranger cars (which I expect to be the case, you don't throw stones on cars of people you actually know, not under normal circumstances)? Ie I am a tourist and driving around and I like some older parts of town. What is it with people generally that make them feel above others, forcing their viewpoints on everybody else as the only truth? People should generally travel far and exotic more, it changes folks for the better rather than their own micro echo chambers
  - cassepipe 4y ago
    So if may summarize your question : What is it with people who have an absolute definition of truth, people who think truth is something that has been revealed/given to them rather something to be found by questioning the world, people who think the world outside of their community is at best misguided if not evil, what is it with them that make them so intolerant ? Who knows ?
    - eloisant 4y ago
      It's tribalism.
  - will5421 4y ago
    > What is it with people generally that make them feel above others, forcing their viewpoints on everybody else as the only truth? I honestly thought you were talking about the car drivers, until your next sentence. > People should generally travel far and exotic more, it changes folks for the better rather than their own micro echo chambers Travelling like this is a luxury. The views of those who can't afford this luxury should be protected over the views of those who can.
    - 4y ago

The public transport is operated by the government. They consider no one should work on Saturdays so they don't run their services then. I think if using your private car was forbidden it would've been even crazier.

hoseja 4y ago
Well, it IS forbidden, no? Just not banned by the government.
- midasuni 4y ago
  It’s forbidden to carry the car keys, let alone drive the car. But Jewish people do seem to be good at creating loopholes — it’s forbidden to press the button for the elevator, so the elevator stops at every floor so you don’t need to. It’s forbidden to turn on the oven, so the timer will turn it on for you. It’s forbidden to push you child in a buggy, so there’s a wire out up around the neighbourhood to make it not forbidden. It’s quite amusing really
  - zirgs 4y ago
    https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/91594/theres-wire-above-manhattan-youve-probably-never-noticed https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/91594/theres-wire-above-... There's a wire around Manhattan. And it costs 100k a year to maintain it.
    - TheHappyOddish 4y ago
      > The eruv encircles much of Manhattan, acting as a symbolic boundary that turns the very public streets of the city into a private space, much like one's own home. This allows people to freely communicate and socialize on the Sabbath—and carry whatever they please—without having to worry about breaking Jewish law. This article seems to assume a lot of existing knowledge about Jewish "laws". To provide further information (from a quick bit of research), it appears that Jews cannot transfer items "between domains" on the Sabbath, effectively they can't take an item from a private place to a public place, or another private place. The rules appear to get very complx and specific[0], but basically it appears to be a way of Jewish people cheating on the rules by choosing to interpret as liberally as possible ("if we put a wire in a square around our houses and the street between and you, me and the government agree it's only one house today, then we've ticked the box"). How delightfully bizare. I can't imagine God at judgement time going "Well you got me on a technicality, head on up you cheeky rascals", but I guess they know him better than me. 0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eruv https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eruv
      - lotsofpulp 4y ago
        > How delightfully bizare. I can't imagine God at judgement time going "Well you got me on a technicality, head on up you cheeky rascals", but I guess they know him better than me. It has nothing to do with “God”. It is a show of allegiance to the tribe. Everyone knows the rule and loophole is nonsense, but they play along to display that they are still wanting the tribal affiliation even though they do not want to follow all the tribal rules, and so put in some effort to getting around them to earn their “freedom” while still being able to claim allegiance to the other tribe members. A lot of the answers to “why” for things that are obviously simple inconveniences with no utility to the individual or expenses that seemingly benefit no one are a form of sacrifice to show loyalty to a group. In fact, the more sacrificial something is, the better the signaling. In this case, giving up some money offsets not actually sacrificing the freedom to do what you want.
      - WJW 4y ago
        > I can't imagine God at judgement time going "Well you got me on a technicality, head on up you cheeky rascals", but I guess they know him better than me. The reasoning goes like this: - God is perfect and omniscient. - The Jewish laws come pretty much directly from God. - Therefore the law is perfect as written, because to assume that a mortal could ever find an error in the laws of a perfect God would be an act of the purest hubris. - Therefore there are no unintentional loopholes, because God is perfect. Any "loopholes" were put in there on purpose by God, as Easter eggs or as rewards for those who studied diligently enough to notice them. - Therefore any "loopholes" which stand the test of time (and with that the thorough inspection of other experts of Jewish law) are to be celebrated. They were surely found by a person with great knowledge of the Holy Book, which is to be admired. So yes, in the Jewish perspective God would indeed go something "you got me on a technicality, well done!" when judgement day comes. I'm not sure if I agree, but I do admire the internal consistency of the belief. It does seem pretty heretical to presume you know better than the actual Bible after all, and surely an omnipotent and omniscient God is capable of writing down exactly what He means.
        TheHappyOddish 4y ago
        Ok, I do respect that chain of logic. I've never really associated rationalism with organised religion, maybe I've been looking at it wrong!
- WJW 4y ago
  Not everyone in Israel is Jewish, and not all those of the Jewish ethnic group practice the religious beliefs. There are plenty of people in Israel who enjoy a good bacon sandwich for example, and there are plenty who drive their cars around on shabat. However the religious parties managed to capture the government for decades and have forbidden the national bus and trains companies to drive around Jews and non-Jews alike on Saturdays.
- edanm 4y ago
  I'm not sure what you mean by "forbidden". It's not illegal. Is it forbidden by Jewish law? Yes. But this only applies to whoever decides to keep it. Most of the Israeli population doesn't keep Shabbat, so they have no problem driving their car around. (Similarly Jews and Muslims may decide to keep Kosher while living in the States, that's a personal choice.)

lozenge 4y ago

Yep, it's a significant contributor to car culture as once you have a car you start using it for trips that could be done using walking. And everybody needs a car to be mobile on Shabbat unless they can pay for taxis with a surcharge or are actually religious.

golemiprague 4y ago
[dead]

Symbiote 4y ago

The Outer Hebrides (islands) of Scotland had a similar situation. The ferry used not to run on Sundays, and there were protests when Sunday service began. However, the airport operated flights on Sunday, so if you could afford it you could still e.g. visit family for the weekend and return to the mainland in time for work on Monday. There are still no buses on Sunday, although there seem to be very few Monday-Saturday so that might not be entirely due to religious indoctrination.

dolmen 4y ago
The religious indoctrination is that people (including bus drivers or ferry operators) should have a rest day with their family (everybody has the same rest day). Whether it is really religious or just good sense is left to your appreciation.
- pharmakom 4y ago
  Usually companies establish a rotation where some work Saturday and some work Sunday but nobody works both.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]

WJW 4y ago

Well. You are legally allowed to drive a car around, but will still get stones thrown at your car if you do so in an ultra-orthodox neighborhood.

saiya-jin 4y ago
Even at random stranger cars (which I expect to be the case, you don't throw stones on cars of people you actually know, not under normal circumstances)? Ie I am a tourist and driving around and I like some older parts of town. What is it with people generally that make them feel above others, forcing their viewpoints on everybody else as the only truth? People should generally travel far and exotic more, it changes folks for the better rather than their own micro echo chambers
- cassepipe 4y ago
  So if may summarize your question : What is it with people who have an absolute definition of truth, people who think truth is something that has been revealed/given to them rather something to be found by questioning the world, people who think the world outside of their community is at best misguided if not evil, what is it with them that make them so intolerant ? Who knows ?
  - eloisant 4y ago
    It's tribalism.
- will5421 4y ago
  > What is it with people generally that make them feel above others, forcing their viewpoints on everybody else as the only truth? I honestly thought you were talking about the car drivers, until your next sentence. > People should generally travel far and exotic more, it changes folks for the better rather than their own micro echo chambers Travelling like this is a luxury. The views of those who can't afford this luxury should be protected over the views of those who can.
  - 4y ago