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It's really sad that there is no where for us to go in the desktop OS space right now. I, weirdly, daily drive all 3 OSes. MacOS; Work issued laptop and longi

It's really sad that there is no where for us to go in the desktop OS space right now. I, weirdly, daily drive all 3 OSes. MacOS; Work issued laptop and longish-time user (about 6 years with it). Windows; Desktop PC mostly for games. I've been using Windows since I could walk. Fedora; Desktop PC, dual booted which I use for most everything else. I cannot believe how much of a dumpster fire Windows has become. From the ads to the degradation of basic desktop functionality - it's become so arduous to deal with. MacOS is better, but it still very annoying to deal with in a lot of ways. Apple are certainly set on degrading the user experience and in general neglect much needed feature additions. Fedora is fantastic, but no matter how much I love it, Linux is janky. I am looking at Linux and hoping that it saves the desktop OS experience - because it's very clear that both Microsoft and Apple are not interested. MacOS ties me over until then - but I can't even game on my Apple Silicon MacBook Pro now, so when I travel I have to bring two computers with me...

LeoPanthera 4y ago
> MacOS is better, but it still very annoying to deal with in a lot of ways. Apple are certainly set on degrading the user experience and in general neglect much needed feature additions. Could you elaborate?
devjab 4y ago
> but no matter how much I love it, Linux is janky. I see this a little bit different. I have ADHD and this relates to my operating system because I tend to go with the path of least resistance a little more so than my peers, or at least that's my anecdotal experience. Which means I haven't used Linux for a loooong time, exactly because it's janky. Where Linux is improving, however, both Windows and MacOS aren't. MacOS is degrading at a much slower rate, and it's likely going to be a long time before a MacBook Air with MacOS stops being my main Laptop (things like Framekwork aren't available in Denmark). I am, however, seriously considering putting Linux on my gaming machine because of how bad Windows has become. This is sort of "easy" for me because I don't play a lot of games. For the past 10 years it's been Blood Bowl 2 and Path of Exile/Diablo 3, for the next ten years it'll likely be Blood Bowl 3 and Diablo 4 + whatever ARPG I come to love. So if those few games work on Linux, then I'll be perfectly set. I wouldn't have considered switching to Linux if it wasn't because Microsoft keeps making Windows worse. Who ever thought it was a good idea to put advertisements into your operating system? Like seriously? And why isn't it illegal, at least here in the EU? Going back to Apple, the annoyance of having the closed ecosystem, is also getting to the point where it's becoming more of a burden than a feature. At least for me personally. This is largely because a lot of the people I communicate a lot with aren't in the ecosystem. It is also because a lot of the "digital home" stuff you can get in Denmark isn't going to be Apple. Even for the stuff that is available, like Apple TV, it's not like it's going to be a good option compared to a Chromecast because we simply don't get a lot of the features Americans do, and the Apple stuff is 10-100x the price of its alternatives. Then when your otherwise lovely ecosystem doesn't work when you're trying to have a group conversation via SMS with people not using iMessage, or a media setup with a Chromecast + some Linux stuff, it just becomes more trouble than it's worth, which means it no longer really makes sense to get the iPhone simply because it fits in with everything... I could go on ranting, but the point is that so far, the closed tech giants have been mainly driving me toward open alternatives out of convenience, and I'm likely not the only one. I think it'll hurt Microsoft more than it'll hurt Apple, but then Microsoft likely makes it money in enterprise sales where they have no competition, at least not yet.
- modeless 4y ago
  Have you tried Proton on Linux? The days of needing Windows for gaming are over now. It's all thanks to Valve's work on the Steam Deck, but it works just as well for desktop Linux too. All you have to do is install Steam and then enable Proton for the Windows games you want to play. Some of my games even work better on Linux under Proton than they do on Windows. For your specific games, I see people saying Diablo works and Blood Bowl is marked as compatible.
  - apatheticonion 4y ago
    Honestly, the work Valve have done with Proton is incredible. It has made a world of difference to my daily computing life. If only Google would put the same effort into polishing Chrome on Linux :laugh: Also Zoom, Slack...
    - modeless 4y ago
      What's wrong with Chrome on Linux? It works well enough for me. Half of Google uses it since they have Linux desktops, including the Chrome team, so it gets attention.
- lawgimenez 4y ago
  I'm playing Diablo Immortal on Fedora with the help of Lutris. Just be careful though, it only takes one sudo dnf update to break the whole thing.
theK 4y ago
I disagree. I think the Desktop world right now is better than ever. If you don't care, just use windows If you want to be a creative type use a Mac If you are a tinkerer just go straight to linux. The thing is, even Linux has a great noob experience right now if you pick a starter distro (elementary, ubuntu, etc). And if you think "imnnot in any of these categories" then you are probably only going to be happy with the first two, so flip a coin or decide on budget.
eviks 4y ago
Mac/Windows aren't interested, but Linux is that + not capable, were doomed :(
safety1st 4y ago
This post is basically about the author's nostalgia for his early days of computing with Windows 95 and how he wanted his son to have the same experience. This post is screaming out for Linux. Linux is the solution to his dilemma. If he reformats that drive and puts say Kubuntu on it - the kid's first PC experience is going to be a vaguely retro 90's style shell with a start menu, the start menu is going to have a Games folder and even a Science & Math folder. (I don't think Scratch is installed by default but he should install it.) Better than Win95! There will be no commercial nags, no pre-installed social media apps, no news about mass shootings. And of course it's Linux, so there's infinite opportunity to get under the hood and tinker.
- piyush_soni 4y ago
  > And of course it's Linux, so there's infinite opportunity to get under the hood and tinker. - Or keep trying to fix the environment + hardware compatibility issues and not do the actual work/study. Or keep editing some random xorg.conf file because his monitor's display suddenly became weird. Or try to fix some other random files since the sound driver doesn't work. He's 10. I'm 40 and still horrified to deal with those problems on a daily basis as my company requires me to work multiple platforms. Linux doesn't care for a regular non-geek user, and its experts all over the internet are very condescending in general. It's a sad reality that no platform actually cares for what a general customer wants. Macs these days have a few times more problems than Windows. His best bet is probably to just stick to Windows and keep checking for any new auto-introduced problems.
  - bboygravity 4y ago
    This is 100 percent why I (and many others no doubt) don't want to touch Linux. Even though it feels better/best. When it fully works on my hardware. Which it never ever does.
    - blkhawk 4y ago
      Good, I think that is somewhat of a feature - It serves as a bit of a moat to people who would hurt themself in their confusion. This might sound a bit harsh but Microsoft actively cultivated a type of user I would call "long time novice computer user" and combine that with the poor choices that were made regarding security design and you get results like the ninja updates Windows has these days. As for hardware compatibility Windows has the big advantage that everything is tested on it. One can definitively minimize the risk of issues by just selecting appropriate hardware for linux.
foobarbecue 4y ago
I'm fairly happy with my situation: Windows 10 work machine, I do almost everything in WSL. WSL is pretty impressive these days, with native graphical support and decent filesystem and device interoperability. Windows has come a long way; it has a decent terminal now and utilities like ssh and curl have been added to stock cmd.exe . I've been able to turn off all the awful ad stuff. Never crashes, and I can do vertical taskbar and three monitors easy. Then I have a kubuntu laptop / convertible tablet for all my personal projects which as you say is great but has lots of weird issues like rarely surviving sleep, screen tearing, high touchpad latency, etc. The big win is avoiding Apple.
- CodeCompost 4y ago
  The last update broke WSL for me.
  - blueorange8 4y ago
    Do wsl --update as administrator If doesn't work the first time try a few times
    - ornornor 4y ago
      > If doesn't work the first time try a few times Windows sounds like it hasn’t changed much after all.
      - oblio 4y ago
        It depends, does the process also require restarting the system for user app config changes?
    - CodeCompost 4y ago
      Works. Thanks.
- apatheticonion 4y ago
  WSL2 has been pretty frustrating to deal with when I needed to anything that wasn't very basic - which limited its usefulness to scenarios already served well enough by WSL1 (or MSYS2) But it's little things about the desktop experience that makes me roll my eyes; like drag an icon from your desktop to your start menu. Try to change the settings on your audio device. Try to uninstall Skype and remove all of the preinstalled stuff without removing something important. Try to use the start menu search to launch an installed application. Terminal is a great application though, very needed on Windows and the usability of things like explorer and multi monitor window management is fantastic (though MacOS does workspaces better than Windows, everything else about MacOS's window management story is garbage)
somat 4y ago
I get you, I have an openbsd desktop setup I love to death. It just makes me feel empowered compared to windows, I mean, realistically it's not. it is openbsd, it's slow, no commercial software, no backwards compatibility, old software is always needing to be recompiled, nobody else uses openbsd so it is hard to get help. But it is so comfortable, I know where everything is, The system is simple enough for me to understand every part of it, the init system is a simple shell script, it is right there, you can read and understand everything there is to know about openbsd boot in an hour. My window manager is fully described in one man page. Windows angers me up every time I use it, linux is a little better, but still has too much magic going on, I love this openbsd desktop setup. plus I have an old thinkpad x131 that runs obsd perfectly, I will be very sad when it dies.
raverbashing 4y ago
I'd think I'd be able to use and enjoy Windows again if I got a Server (or at least a 'Pro' version) to play with and could turn off all the crap they ship with it But currently MacOS and Linux look more interesting
natnatenathan 4y ago
I just installed Fedora on my personal computer (X1 Carbon, 6th gen) and it is everything I've ever wanted. There was no configurations I needed to fiddle with. The semi-annual update is amazingly smooth. It also makes my old laptop feel like a hotrod again. I'm happy to have a computer without an AI chip. I use a Mac for work, and it is good, but I sense the subscription mania creeping in there as well. I couldn't make the jump to Windows 8 - because Microsoft created a UI without considering the customer at all. Windows 10 was a great reprieve, especially with one of the early Surface Laptops. But I can't even remain a Microsoft customer with Window 11. The whole system is built with the only intention of driving ad-based subscription revenue. The new Edge browser feels the same way. Sometimes I really hate what our industry has become. Boy am I an old curmudgeon, I think I need to go yell at someone to get off my lawn.
- akvadrako 4y ago
  You got a bit lucky though. If you had installed Fedora on a 7th gen you wouldn't have had a working mic until about a year after release unless you patched your kernel.
  - pantalaimon 4y ago
    That’s always the case with new hardware. If you want everything to work out of the box, buy a 2nd hand system. That’s cheaper anyways.
- soco 4y ago
  I see lots of comments about ads in Windows 11 but I didn't see any so far on my home PC. Might it be country related and most of the commenters here are US based? Where in Windows do you see ads folks? Again for clarity: I'm in Switzerland and I don't remember seeing any ad. Zero. Or could be Norton blocking them?
kerpotgh 4y ago
[dead]
anothernewdude 4y ago
As above, except my gaming happens on Linux.
spaceman_2020 4y ago
I have almost the same setup, except for Ubuntu instead of Fedora. I have pet peeves with all of them. I really dislike Mac’s handling of files and window management. Windows ads and forced updates are a major annoyance. So many times I wanted to boot up quickly and find some files before leaving for work, and I would be forced to wait for some random update to install. Ubuntu is filled with minor annoyances, from software failing to auto-update to poor scrollwheel management. Hate to say it, but out of all these systems, OSX is the least worst.
majkinetor 4y ago
But the difference is, you can fix Windows with lots of powershell and mumbo jumbo. Others still unfixable.
- ducknalddon 4y ago
  Until the next update. I spend far too much time trying to make Windows behave in a non-obnoxious way.
  - majkinetor 4y ago
    Use ShutUp10 then reimport after update. Or better: 1. You disable update (group policy or WuMgr tool or whateva) 2. Install-Module PSWindowsUpdate then cherry pick with Install-WindowsUpdate 3. Reruns scripts you created in pwsh to disable junk.
ncallaway 4y ago
> Windows; Desktop PC mostly for games. That's totally fair, but I would definitely recommend that you try installing games on your Linux desktop as well. Proton is absolutely stunning in what they've managed to accomplish. I'm always a little surprised when a game _doesn't_ run well in Proton now. If you've got particular games that you must play that don't run well on Linux, you'll probably want to keep the Windows partition available. But I've found the amount of time I "switch over" to Windows for a game has drastically decreased. I can scratch the itch 95% of the time without leaving Linux now.
- nine_k 4y ago
  Maybe a Steam Deck could be a better game computer. BTW it's Linux under the hood anyway.
  - ncallaway 4y ago
    Depends on the hardware. A desktop PC can definitely have better hardware/power/cooling. But, yes, the Steam Deck is an awesome linux gaming computer. Even better than the hardware itself, I think the Steam Deck is a _huge_ driver of Valve to improve Proton, so in a lot of ways the Steam Deck is driving forward linux desktop gaming too.
- apatheticonion 4y ago
  This is actually something I try to make a point of doing frequently. I tend to try games on Linux first before falling back to Windows after. Big call out is controller support. Sometimes I game on my TV, when I do I use an Xbox whatever-the-current-gen-is controller with the official usb dongle. To get it working on Linux, I had to compile/install a third party kernel extension from GitHub via the command line - fine for me but I could not ask anyone else to do it. It also doesn't always launch properly. Sometimes I have to shutdown, unplug the usb, boot with it unplugged, login, plug it in, then turn on my controller. I have gotten into the rhythm of this because I really want Linux to be the place for me but the reality is that it would be nice if Linux had built in support for this hardware. Also, I run my TV at 1440p@120hz rather than its default 4k@60hz - the login screen in Fedora runs at 4k before switching to 1440p after logging in. But something interesting with Proton is that it runs some games better than Windows does - particularly older titles that use older APIs. I was playing through GTA4 recently (never got through the whole game, underrated IMO) and it plays _way_ better on Linux than Windows - even when you use DXVK on Windows. Same with COD2!
rwmj 4y ago
I had to do some troubleshooting on macOS for relatives over the holidays, and I couldn't believe how bad and unintuitive Macs have got since I last used them ~ 15 years ago. Hidden functionality, non-actionable error messages, unintuitive workflows, terrible online information. Steve Jobs must be turning in his grave. (Still much better than Windows though). For balance I daily drive Fedora too, and I cannot connect my new Sony bluetooth headphones to it. Oh well ...
hooby 4y ago
> but no matter how much I love it, Linux is janky. To be honest though, so is Windows (in certain aspects). I believe that someone who works with Linux every day, gets used to certain stuff being janky and no longer notices it - just like someon working with Windows every day gets used to the jank found there, and no longer notices it. It's only when you are used to one system and switch over to the other, that you notice the jank - because it's a degradation from your normal experience. I've been using Mint for years now (and a few years of Ubuntu before that, and a single year of OSX before that, and many years of Windows before that). Despite still having a Windows PC for gaming which I use regularly - I've grown accustomed to Linux enough, that trying to use Windows professionally causes me pain. For example: I'm so used to package managers these days, that the practice of installing software by going to a website, downloading a downloader which downloads an installer that installs an updater... all the while having to agree to various long and complicated EULAs and T&Cs, and also having to take care that no unwanted "bundled" software comes along... these days this seems just utterly absurd to me - but back when I was a Windows user, this was just normal - and having to do `sudo apt install the-thing-I-want` instead, would have seemed completely arcane and stupid to me.
- Arn_Thor 4y ago
  I think a key difference is the type of jank we're talking about. In Windows, non-tech-savy users can get by. Most have never ever had to type a command, and it would paralyze them. Love it or hate it, the maddening level of clicks and menus it takes to get stuff done in Windows (or Mac OS) also makes it understandable to much more people. A CLI is just a much higher barrier for most people than memorizing a series of menu clicks.
  - hooby 4y ago
    What you are saying was true at some point in the past - but Linux has come a very long way since then, and the system UIs of many distributions these days are pretty slick, and do offer graphical settings windows for everything a non tech-savvy user ever needs. Ask my 80 y.o., non-tech-savvy dad, who after struggling with Windows for years, is really happy with his Laptop running on Linux now. The amount of calls I get from him needing help with his machine has gone down to a fraction of what it was before.
jyrkesh 4y ago
I'm in a similar boat. I use MacOS with the work-issued laptop, and due to a longstanding effort from Apple to make inroads in education, I used Macs at school since OS8. But for everything else--gaming, web, Telegram, remote admin--I think Win 11 is fine. I ran Gentoo exclusively on multiple boxes for years. I still use NixOS to host a few workloads for friends and family. But if I want to just __do stuff__, Windows is still the easiest way to just plug anything in, run any program, sync any thing, whatever...and now it has a bunch of trapdoors to more native Cygwin-type things...and I just don't want to reboot or keep two systems up to date anymore. But yes, there's sketchy telemetry and phone home, and I'd _rather_ run something where the code's at least _theoretically_ been reviewed by someone who's not in the state's pocket. But I'm just tired, and it's good enough...
NovaDudely 4y ago
Not sure if I just got used to it or my hardware setups just work but Linux systems have been pretty good for me the last few years. Desktop environments like Cinnamon and Mate still have that basic interface without the clutter but it definetly isn't for everyone. That said, there is nothing quiet like a new install of Windows XP/Windows 7. Nothing captures that feeling. It is merely an interface for running programs and managing data then it gets out of the way.
- apatheticonion 4y ago
  > It is merely an interface for running programs and managing data then it gets out of the way. This captures exactly how I feel about it as well. Windows XP and 7 were fantastic in that they were graphical portals to run things. You didn't really notice them there for the most part. Though I am speaking about vanilla installs and not preinstalled Windows from OEMs - they were loaded with garbage Likewise though, Linux has been very stable for me in recent years
deafpolygon 4y ago
What basic desktop functionality is degraded? I mean, I understand the ads, and the push towards cloud with OneDrive. But what functionality has been degraded? As far as I can tell, Windows still has the best multi-monitor support of the 3, and pretty good window management defaults out of the box. Driver support out of the box as well, and rock-solid stable DE. macOS, on the other hand, has this weird ideas of window management and requires third party software for snapping your windows to the corners, and so on. I see a lot of hand-waving in this thread which makes me doubt the credibility of many posters.
- apatheticonion 4y ago
  Search is an immediate stand out feature. I rarely use shortcuts these days, just "Super + 'term' + Enter" Windows start menu search is almost non deterministic these days. When working from home, I often switch between audio devices - this is something that was easier in previous versions of Windows, same with messing with the audio mixer to change the volume of different apps. The start menu as a whole is _entirely_ useless now. You can't drag shortcuts onto it, you can drag shortcuts from it, who knows how to add items to it. App data storage can get wacky with state stored who knows where. AppData, ProgramData, Local. They wanted to make everything UWP apps, which store stuff differently to legacy apps and then they changed that again - so now apps store stuff in like 4 places. OneDrive rewrites locations like Desktop, Documents, etc so you have two Documents folders - one isn't used but it's there because... it's there. Some apps write to one of the folders and other apps write to the other. Interacting with settings in any meaningful way. Network proxies are entirely broken on Windows 10 and 11 - with no diagnostic output or way to know they are active. They announced the beautiful window decorations of Windows 11 (which I like) but there is no API to build apps using it - at least not that I can tell. There is the WinUI library, but the examples on the Windows developer website don't even compile and they don't seem to care about it at all. --- That said --- Windows absolutely _crushes_ window management and file admin. Nothing comes close for that. Tiling is perfect. Windows explorer is rational and powerful. Finder is not even 5% as good. However MacOS and Gnome do workspaces in multi monitor setups way better than Windows (separate workspaces per monitor). IMO the _only_ thing MacOS has going for it is a bash terminal that is well integrated into the OS. WSL1 was a great start, WSL2 sucks. I would rather use Windows with WSL1 (or MSYS2) but there are no Windows laptops with 12 hour battery lives and a lucrative contract with my employer.
Gordonjcp 4y ago
> Fedora is fantastic, but no matter how much I love it, Linux is janky. Have you ever used Windows? Now *that'* janky. Poor driver support, no way to update it, no package management, but plenty of ways to get it to show you adverts. I feel like a reliable dependable modern desktop OS shouldn't need to connect to the Internet to pull down a new set of drivers every single time you plug a USB drive in. Maybe 2024 will be the year of Windows on the desktop, but it's not ready yet.
hospitalJail 4y ago
I mostly agree, Windows has been an awful experience in the last few years. If I didn't use software made for Windows, I'd be gone. Linux has finally gotten decent enough for main use. It is incredibly nice not to be harassed by M$ ads + annoying features.

LeoPanthera 4y ago

> MacOS is better, but it still very annoying to deal with in a lot of ways. Apple are certainly set on degrading the user experience and in general neglect much needed feature additions. Could you elaborate?

devjab 4y ago

> but no matter how much I love it, Linux is janky. I see this a little bit different. I have ADHD and this relates to my operating system because I tend to go with the path of least resistance a little more so than my peers, or at least that's my anecdotal experience. Which means I haven't used Linux for a loooong time, exactly because it's janky. Where Linux is improving, however, both Windows and MacOS aren't. MacOS is degrading at a much slower rate, and it's likely going to be a long time before a MacBook Air with MacOS stops being my main Laptop (things like Framekwork aren't available in Denmark). I am, however, seriously considering putting Linux on my gaming machine because of how bad Windows has become. This is sort of "easy" for me because I don't play a lot of games. For the past 10 years it's been Blood Bowl 2 and Path of Exile/Diablo 3, for the next ten years it'll likely be Blood Bowl 3 and Diablo 4 + whatever ARPG I come to love. So if those few games work on Linux, then I'll be perfectly set. I wouldn't have considered switching to Linux if it wasn't because Microsoft keeps making Windows worse. Who ever thought it was a good idea to put advertisements into your operating system? Like seriously? And why isn't it illegal, at least here in the EU? Going back to Apple, the annoyance of having the closed ecosystem, is also getting to the point where it's becoming more of a burden than a feature. At least for me personally. This is largely because a lot of the people I communicate a lot with aren't in the ecosystem. It is also because a lot of the "digital home" stuff you can get in Denmark isn't going to be Apple. Even for the stuff that is available, like Apple TV, it's not like it's going to be a good option compared to a Chromecast because we simply don't get a lot of the features Americans do, and the Apple stuff is 10-100x the price of its alternatives. Then when your otherwise lovely ecosystem doesn't work when you're trying to have a group conversation via SMS with people not using iMessage, or a media setup with a Chromecast + some Linux stuff, it just becomes more trouble than it's worth, which means it no longer really makes sense to get the iPhone simply because it fits in with everything... I could go on ranting, but the point is that so far, the closed tech giants have been mainly driving me toward open alternatives out of convenience, and I'm likely not the only one. I think it'll hurt Microsoft more than it'll hurt Apple, but then Microsoft likely makes it money in enterprise sales where they have no competition, at least not yet.

modeless 4y ago
Have you tried Proton on Linux? The days of needing Windows for gaming are over now. It's all thanks to Valve's work on the Steam Deck, but it works just as well for desktop Linux too. All you have to do is install Steam and then enable Proton for the Windows games you want to play. Some of my games even work better on Linux under Proton than they do on Windows. For your specific games, I see people saying Diablo works and Blood Bowl is marked as compatible.
- apatheticonion 4y ago
  Honestly, the work Valve have done with Proton is incredible. It has made a world of difference to my daily computing life. If only Google would put the same effort into polishing Chrome on Linux :laugh: Also Zoom, Slack...
  - modeless 4y ago
    What's wrong with Chrome on Linux? It works well enough for me. Half of Google uses it since they have Linux desktops, including the Chrome team, so it gets attention.
lawgimenez 4y ago
I'm playing Diablo Immortal on Fedora with the help of Lutris. Just be careful though, it only takes one sudo dnf update to break the whole thing.

theK 4y ago

I disagree. I think the Desktop world right now is better than ever. If you don't care, just use windows If you want to be a creative type use a Mac If you are a tinkerer just go straight to linux. The thing is, even Linux has a great noob experience right now if you pick a starter distro (elementary, ubuntu, etc). And if you think "imnnot in any of these categories" then you are probably only going to be happy with the first two, so flip a coin or decide on budget.

eviks 4y ago

Mac/Windows aren't interested, but Linux is that + not capable, were doomed :(

safety1st 4y ago

This post is basically about the author's nostalgia for his early days of computing with Windows 95 and how he wanted his son to have the same experience. This post is screaming out for Linux. Linux is the solution to his dilemma. If he reformats that drive and puts say Kubuntu on it - the kid's first PC experience is going to be a vaguely retro 90's style shell with a start menu, the start menu is going to have a Games folder and even a Science & Math folder. (I don't think Scratch is installed by default but he should install it.) Better than Win95! There will be no commercial nags, no pre-installed social media apps, no news about mass shootings. And of course it's Linux, so there's infinite opportunity to get under the hood and tinker.

piyush_soni 4y ago
> And of course it's Linux, so there's infinite opportunity to get under the hood and tinker. - Or keep trying to fix the environment + hardware compatibility issues and not do the actual work/study. Or keep editing some random xorg.conf file because his monitor's display suddenly became weird. Or try to fix some other random files since the sound driver doesn't work. He's 10. I'm 40 and still horrified to deal with those problems on a daily basis as my company requires me to work multiple platforms. Linux doesn't care for a regular non-geek user, and its experts all over the internet are very condescending in general. It's a sad reality that no platform actually cares for what a general customer wants. Macs these days have a few times more problems than Windows. His best bet is probably to just stick to Windows and keep checking for any new auto-introduced problems.
- bboygravity 4y ago
  This is 100 percent why I (and many others no doubt) don't want to touch Linux. Even though it feels better/best. When it fully works on my hardware. Which it never ever does.
  - blkhawk 4y ago
    Good, I think that is somewhat of a feature - It serves as a bit of a moat to people who would hurt themself in their confusion. This might sound a bit harsh but Microsoft actively cultivated a type of user I would call "long time novice computer user" and combine that with the poor choices that were made regarding security design and you get results like the ninja updates Windows has these days. As for hardware compatibility Windows has the big advantage that everything is tested on it. One can definitively minimize the risk of issues by just selecting appropriate hardware for linux.

foobarbecue 4y ago

I'm fairly happy with my situation: Windows 10 work machine, I do almost everything in WSL. WSL is pretty impressive these days, with native graphical support and decent filesystem and device interoperability. Windows has come a long way; it has a decent terminal now and utilities like ssh and curl have been added to stock cmd.exe . I've been able to turn off all the awful ad stuff. Never crashes, and I can do vertical taskbar and three monitors easy. Then I have a kubuntu laptop / convertible tablet for all my personal projects which as you say is great but has lots of weird issues like rarely surviving sleep, screen tearing, high touchpad latency, etc. The big win is avoiding Apple.

CodeCompost 4y ago
The last update broke WSL for me.
- blueorange8 4y ago
  Do wsl --update as administrator If doesn't work the first time try a few times
  - ornornor 4y ago
    > If doesn't work the first time try a few times Windows sounds like it hasn’t changed much after all.
    - oblio 4y ago
      It depends, does the process also require restarting the system for user app config changes?
  - CodeCompost 4y ago
    Works. Thanks.
apatheticonion 4y ago
WSL2 has been pretty frustrating to deal with when I needed to anything that wasn't very basic - which limited its usefulness to scenarios already served well enough by WSL1 (or MSYS2) But it's little things about the desktop experience that makes me roll my eyes; like drag an icon from your desktop to your start menu. Try to change the settings on your audio device. Try to uninstall Skype and remove all of the preinstalled stuff without removing something important. Try to use the start menu search to launch an installed application. Terminal is a great application though, very needed on Windows and the usability of things like explorer and multi monitor window management is fantastic (though MacOS does workspaces better than Windows, everything else about MacOS's window management story is garbage)

somat 4y ago

I get you, I have an openbsd desktop setup I love to death. It just makes me feel empowered compared to windows, I mean, realistically it's not. it is openbsd, it's slow, no commercial software, no backwards compatibility, old software is always needing to be recompiled, nobody else uses openbsd so it is hard to get help. But it is so comfortable, I know where everything is, The system is simple enough for me to understand every part of it, the init system is a simple shell script, it is right there, you can read and understand everything there is to know about openbsd boot in an hour. My window manager is fully described in one man page. Windows angers me up every time I use it, linux is a little better, but still has too much magic going on, I love this openbsd desktop setup. plus I have an old thinkpad x131 that runs obsd perfectly, I will be very sad when it dies.

raverbashing 4y ago

I'd think I'd be able to use and enjoy Windows again if I got a Server (or at least a 'Pro' version) to play with and could turn off all the crap they ship with it But currently MacOS and Linux look more interesting

natnatenathan 4y ago

I just installed Fedora on my personal computer (X1 Carbon, 6th gen) and it is everything I've ever wanted. There was no configurations I needed to fiddle with. The semi-annual update is amazingly smooth. It also makes my old laptop feel like a hotrod again. I'm happy to have a computer without an AI chip. I use a Mac for work, and it is good, but I sense the subscription mania creeping in there as well. I couldn't make the jump to Windows 8 - because Microsoft created a UI without considering the customer at all. Windows 10 was a great reprieve, especially with one of the early Surface Laptops. But I can't even remain a Microsoft customer with Window 11. The whole system is built with the only intention of driving ad-based subscription revenue. The new Edge browser feels the same way. Sometimes I really hate what our industry has become. Boy am I an old curmudgeon, I think I need to go yell at someone to get off my lawn.

akvadrako 4y ago
You got a bit lucky though. If you had installed Fedora on a 7th gen you wouldn't have had a working mic until about a year after release unless you patched your kernel.
- pantalaimon 4y ago
  That’s always the case with new hardware. If you want everything to work out of the box, buy a 2nd hand system. That’s cheaper anyways.
soco 4y ago
I see lots of comments about ads in Windows 11 but I didn't see any so far on my home PC. Might it be country related and most of the commenters here are US based? Where in Windows do you see ads folks? Again for clarity: I'm in Switzerland and I don't remember seeing any ad. Zero. Or could be Norton blocking them?

kerpotgh 4y ago

[dead]

anothernewdude 4y ago

As above, except my gaming happens on Linux.

spaceman_2020 4y ago

I have almost the same setup, except for Ubuntu instead of Fedora. I have pet peeves with all of them. I really dislike Mac’s handling of files and window management. Windows ads and forced updates are a major annoyance. So many times I wanted to boot up quickly and find some files before leaving for work, and I would be forced to wait for some random update to install. Ubuntu is filled with minor annoyances, from software failing to auto-update to poor scrollwheel management. Hate to say it, but out of all these systems, OSX is the least worst.

majkinetor 4y ago

But the difference is, you can fix Windows with lots of powershell and mumbo jumbo. Others still unfixable.

ducknalddon 4y ago
Until the next update. I spend far too much time trying to make Windows behave in a non-obnoxious way.
- majkinetor 4y ago
  Use ShutUp10 then reimport after update. Or better: 1. You disable update (group policy or WuMgr tool or whateva) 2. Install-Module PSWindowsUpdate then cherry pick with Install-WindowsUpdate 3. Reruns scripts you created in pwsh to disable junk.

ncallaway 4y ago

> Windows; Desktop PC mostly for games. That's totally fair, but I would definitely recommend that you try installing games on your Linux desktop as well. Proton is absolutely stunning in what they've managed to accomplish. I'm always a little surprised when a game _doesn't_ run well in Proton now. If you've got particular games that you must play that don't run well on Linux, you'll probably want to keep the Windows partition available. But I've found the amount of time I "switch over" to Windows for a game has drastically decreased. I can scratch the itch 95% of the time without leaving Linux now.

nine_k 4y ago
Maybe a Steam Deck could be a better game computer. BTW it's Linux under the hood anyway.
- ncallaway 4y ago
  Depends on the hardware. A desktop PC can definitely have better hardware/power/cooling. But, yes, the Steam Deck is an awesome linux gaming computer. Even better than the hardware itself, I think the Steam Deck is a _huge_ driver of Valve to improve Proton, so in a lot of ways the Steam Deck is driving forward linux desktop gaming too.
apatheticonion 4y ago
This is actually something I try to make a point of doing frequently. I tend to try games on Linux first before falling back to Windows after. Big call out is controller support. Sometimes I game on my TV, when I do I use an Xbox whatever-the-current-gen-is controller with the official usb dongle. To get it working on Linux, I had to compile/install a third party kernel extension from GitHub via the command line - fine for me but I could not ask anyone else to do it. It also doesn't always launch properly. Sometimes I have to shutdown, unplug the usb, boot with it unplugged, login, plug it in, then turn on my controller. I have gotten into the rhythm of this because I really want Linux to be the place for me but the reality is that it would be nice if Linux had built in support for this hardware. Also, I run my TV at 1440p@120hz rather than its default 4k@60hz - the login screen in Fedora runs at 4k before switching to 1440p after logging in. But something interesting with Proton is that it runs some games better than Windows does - particularly older titles that use older APIs. I was playing through GTA4 recently (never got through the whole game, underrated IMO) and it plays _way_ better on Linux than Windows - even when you use DXVK on Windows. Same with COD2!

rwmj 4y ago

I had to do some troubleshooting on macOS for relatives over the holidays, and I couldn't believe how bad and unintuitive Macs have got since I last used them ~ 15 years ago. Hidden functionality, non-actionable error messages, unintuitive workflows, terrible online information. Steve Jobs must be turning in his grave. (Still much better than Windows though). For balance I daily drive Fedora too, and I cannot connect my new Sony bluetooth headphones to it. Oh well ...

hooby 4y ago

> but no matter how much I love it, Linux is janky. To be honest though, so is Windows (in certain aspects). I believe that someone who works with Linux every day, gets used to certain stuff being janky and no longer notices it - just like someon working with Windows every day gets used to the jank found there, and no longer notices it. It's only when you are used to one system and switch over to the other, that you notice the jank - because it's a degradation from your normal experience. I've been using Mint for years now (and a few years of Ubuntu before that, and a single year of OSX before that, and many years of Windows before that). Despite still having a Windows PC for gaming which I use regularly - I've grown accustomed to Linux enough, that trying to use Windows professionally causes me pain. For example: I'm so used to package managers these days, that the practice of installing software by going to a website, downloading a downloader which downloads an installer that installs an updater... all the while having to agree to various long and complicated EULAs and T&Cs, and also having to take care that no unwanted "bundled" software comes along... these days this seems just utterly absurd to me - but back when I was a Windows user, this was just normal - and having to do `sudo apt install the-thing-I-want` instead, would have seemed completely arcane and stupid to me.

Arn_Thor 4y ago
I think a key difference is the type of jank we're talking about. In Windows, non-tech-savy users can get by. Most have never ever had to type a command, and it would paralyze them. Love it or hate it, the maddening level of clicks and menus it takes to get stuff done in Windows (or Mac OS) also makes it understandable to much more people. A CLI is just a much higher barrier for most people than memorizing a series of menu clicks.
- hooby 4y ago
  What you are saying was true at some point in the past - but Linux has come a very long way since then, and the system UIs of many distributions these days are pretty slick, and do offer graphical settings windows for everything a non tech-savvy user ever needs. Ask my 80 y.o., non-tech-savvy dad, who after struggling with Windows for years, is really happy with his Laptop running on Linux now. The amount of calls I get from him needing help with his machine has gone down to a fraction of what it was before.

jyrkesh 4y ago

I'm in a similar boat. I use MacOS with the work-issued laptop, and due to a longstanding effort from Apple to make inroads in education, I used Macs at school since OS8. But for everything else--gaming, web, Telegram, remote admin--I think Win 11 is fine. I ran Gentoo exclusively on multiple boxes for years. I still use NixOS to host a few workloads for friends and family. But if I want to just __do stuff__, Windows is still the easiest way to just plug anything in, run any program, sync any thing, whatever...and now it has a bunch of trapdoors to more native Cygwin-type things...and I just don't want to reboot or keep two systems up to date anymore. But yes, there's sketchy telemetry and phone home, and I'd _rather_ run something where the code's at least _theoretically_ been reviewed by someone who's not in the state's pocket. But I'm just tired, and it's good enough...

NovaDudely 4y ago

Not sure if I just got used to it or my hardware setups just work but Linux systems have been pretty good for me the last few years. Desktop environments like Cinnamon and Mate still have that basic interface without the clutter but it definetly isn't for everyone. That said, there is nothing quiet like a new install of Windows XP/Windows 7. Nothing captures that feeling. It is merely an interface for running programs and managing data then it gets out of the way.

apatheticonion 4y ago
> It is merely an interface for running programs and managing data then it gets out of the way. This captures exactly how I feel about it as well. Windows XP and 7 were fantastic in that they were graphical portals to run things. You didn't really notice them there for the most part. Though I am speaking about vanilla installs and not preinstalled Windows from OEMs - they were loaded with garbage Likewise though, Linux has been very stable for me in recent years

deafpolygon 4y ago

What basic desktop functionality is degraded? I mean, I understand the ads, and the push towards cloud with OneDrive. But what functionality has been degraded? As far as I can tell, Windows still has the best multi-monitor support of the 3, and pretty good window management defaults out of the box. Driver support out of the box as well, and rock-solid stable DE. macOS, on the other hand, has this weird ideas of window management and requires third party software for snapping your windows to the corners, and so on. I see a lot of hand-waving in this thread which makes me doubt the credibility of many posters.

apatheticonion 4y ago
Search is an immediate stand out feature. I rarely use shortcuts these days, just "Super + 'term' + Enter" Windows start menu search is almost non deterministic these days. When working from home, I often switch between audio devices - this is something that was easier in previous versions of Windows, same with messing with the audio mixer to change the volume of different apps. The start menu as a whole is _entirely_ useless now. You can't drag shortcuts onto it, you can drag shortcuts from it, who knows how to add items to it. App data storage can get wacky with state stored who knows where. AppData, ProgramData, Local. They wanted to make everything UWP apps, which store stuff differently to legacy apps and then they changed that again - so now apps store stuff in like 4 places. OneDrive rewrites locations like Desktop, Documents, etc so you have two Documents folders - one isn't used but it's there because... it's there. Some apps write to one of the folders and other apps write to the other. Interacting with settings in any meaningful way. Network proxies are entirely broken on Windows 10 and 11 - with no diagnostic output or way to know they are active. They announced the beautiful window decorations of Windows 11 (which I like) but there is no API to build apps using it - at least not that I can tell. There is the WinUI library, but the examples on the Windows developer website don't even compile and they don't seem to care about it at all. --- That said --- Windows absolutely _crushes_ window management and file admin. Nothing comes close for that. Tiling is perfect. Windows explorer is rational and powerful. Finder is not even 5% as good. However MacOS and Gnome do workspaces in multi monitor setups way better than Windows (separate workspaces per monitor). IMO the _only_ thing MacOS has going for it is a bash terminal that is well integrated into the OS. WSL1 was a great start, WSL2 sucks. I would rather use Windows with WSL1 (or MSYS2) but there are no Windows laptops with 12 hour battery lives and a lucrative contract with my employer.

Gordonjcp 4y ago

> Fedora is fantastic, but no matter how much I love it, Linux is janky. Have you ever used Windows? Now *that'* janky. Poor driver support, no way to update it, no package management, but plenty of ways to get it to show you adverts. I feel like a reliable dependable modern desktop OS shouldn't need to connect to the Internet to pull down a new set of drivers every single time you plug a USB drive in. Maybe 2024 will be the year of Windows on the desktop, but it's not ready yet.

hospitalJail 4y ago

I mostly agree, Windows has been an awful experience in the last few years. If I didn't use software made for Windows, I'd be gone. Linux has finally gotten decent enough for main use. It is incredibly nice not to be harassed by M$ ads + annoying features.