7 ms·

Ancient soldiers used sound to frighten and confuse their enemies (2022)

64 points by tintinnabula 4y ago

aa-jv 4y ago
I have this situation where I ride electric motorbikes and mopeds around a fairly crowded city. I regularly have close calls with pedestrians who are simply not looking for me, because they haven't heard me. Lucky, I'm a defensive driver, or I would've killed a few people already by now. I often think I should write an app for my iPhone that synthesizes "broom broom" noises based on GPS-derived speed information. But then I realized all I really need is a low-tech whistle on my helmet, or bells on the handlebars to jingle the pedestrians out of their comatose state in time to avoid collision ..
- liotier 4y ago
  > I regularly have close calls with pedestrians who are simply not looking for me Looking out for slower and weaker users is always the responsibility of the faster and more powerful. Pedestrians are the most vulnerable... In a city, should never have to pay attention. But we are not there yet and most pedestrians are surprised when this cyclist stops to let them cross !
  - aa-jv 4y ago
    >Looking out for slower and weaker users is always the responsibility of the faster and more powerful. I absolutely agree, this is why I'm extra careful. But I do believe that the same circumstances came about when we went from horse and buggy to automobile .. and that eventually, peoples' own survival instincts will kick in and they'll just be more alert. Key thing is to avoid becoming part of the problem ..
viraptor 4y ago
Another one to add to that collection: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_hussars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_hussars Polish heavy cavalry with wings making loud buzzing noise during charge.
- bitsinthesky 4y ago
  Do you have an example handy of the sound they’d make, maybe a youtube video? Sounds interesting.
  - viraptor 4y ago
    Unfortunately not. YT is flooded with nationalist crap in this case, but letters from the Hussars talk about the rustling of the feathers scaring the horses. Then again, we still don't really know exactly how they were constructed / mounted, so any replica is a bit of a guess.
UI_at_80x24 4y ago
My personal favorite item related to this is various peoples that used slings would carve lead/stone ammo to make a high-pitch whistle as the bullets flew through the air.
analog31 4y ago
No mention of the bagpipes.
- sys32768 4y ago
  Take my upvote for reminding me of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O61hI0QNCL4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O61hI0QNCL4
- stonogo 4y ago
  Nor the apel.
RcouF1uZ4gsC 4y ago
Another example is Gideon from the Bible where they smashed a bunch of jars and blew trumpets in the middle of the night which caused the enemy to think they were being attacked by a large army and caused them to fight each other.
twic 4y ago
There's a bit in Xenophon's Anabasis (1.8.18) where the armies of two contenders for the throne of the Persian Empire, Cyrus and Artaxerxes, meet in battle. Cyrus's army has a contingent of Greek mercenaries, including Xenophon, who gives the Greek view of the battle in some detail. The armies draw up into lines and slowly advance towards each other, until suddenly the Greeks charge: καὶ ἅμα ἐφθέγξαντο πάντες οἷον τῷ Ἐνυαλίῳ ἐλελίζουσι and at the same time they all uttered the cry as for the Warlike One [ie Ares, god of war] καὶ πάντες δὲ ἔθεον and all flew forward λέγουσι δέ τινες ὡς καὶ ταῖς ἀσπίσι πρὸς τὰ δόρατα ἐδούπησαν they say that some loudly beat their shields with their spears φόβον ποιοῦντες τοῖς ἵπποις sowing fear among the horses (the Greek is Xenophon's [1], the English my crummy translation) So, screaming and drumming to scare the enemy and his horses! The reason i remember this bit about thirty years later is that the word for a war-cry here is "ἐλελίζουσι", "elelizousi". My teacher suggested that this was onomatopoeic, because the cry itself was "ELELELELELELE...", which would be pretty easy to make as you were running towards an enemy, and would be pretty upsetting to hear, coming from thousands of armoured Greeks. As sort of evidence for that, the same word also means "to whirl round" [2], and you can imagine that whirling an object round on a string (as with a sling) would also make the same sort of sound. Wiktionary reckons it's from some proto-Indo-European root, but what do they know, they've probably never charged anyone in their lives, the nerds. [1] https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0201%3Abook%3D1%3Achapter%3D8%3Asection%3D18 https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext... [2] https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%29leli%2Fzousi&la=greek&can=e%29leli%2Fzousi0&prior=*)enuali/w|&d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0201:book=1:chapter=8:section=18&i=1 https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%29leli%2Fzous...
- smogcutter 4y ago
  I find that etymology fun but unlikely, considering (iirc) that “lalo” means to speak or call (as in echolalia), and the epsilon prefix is part of a past tense conjugation (the aorist? I forget, it’s been a long time)
  - leetcrew 4y ago
    > the epsilon prefix is part of a past tense conjugation (the aorist? I forget, it’s been a long time) I thought the same thing (also been a long time), but looks like this is actually the present participle of ἐλελίζω. nice tool if you're not already aware: https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=elelizousi&la=greek https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=elelizousi&la=g...
cronix 4y ago
Kind of like the Stuka Siren/Scream[1] sound combined with the doppler effect the German planes used in WW2 to make that wailing sound that increased in frequency as they dive bombed. That sound carried quite a distance and instilled fear in anyone who heard it, which affected more people than those that were bombed. The Tie Fighters in Star Wars used a similar sound. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhJ8HY24Pb8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhJ8HY24Pb8
- dmix 4y ago
  I've watched plenty of combat footage on Reddit in Ukraine and noticed artillery shells make a high pitched doppler sounded before they impact, usually 1-2s before. You can always see soldiers hit the ground... even when the impact is really far away. Is this intentional? Where basically you create suppressive fear over a large area but even if you hear it you rarely have any reasonable reaction time to do anything about it if it hits near you (unless you have a foxhole). But it still scares the shit out of everyone nearby? Or is this just merely a side effect of the munition traveling through the air at high speeds?
  - dforrestwilson 4y ago
    Side effect. From the shooter’s perspective it would be much easier to cause mass casualties with everyone standing up instead of hugging the contours of the ground. Zero warning is the goal.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - Cthulhu_ 4y ago
    > You can always see soldiers hit the ground... even when the impact is really far away. Better be safe than sorry; with only two seconds of advance warning you don't want to take the risk / be smug about it. Plus, shockwaves and shrapnel can travel far.
- homero 4y ago
  This whole time I thought that sound was the engine
akeck 4y ago
To this day, martial arts like Aikido incorporate a shout (in Aikido, it's called "kiai") to boost the impact of a move.
- ihatepython 4y ago
  In SF2, Guile will say 'sonic boom' before delivering the sonic boom
  - Cthulhu_ 4y ago
    In Super Smash Brothers, Captain Falcon will say "Falcon Punch" before delivering the Falcon Punch.
    - fsckboy 4y ago
      In Batman, punches have often been accompanied by onomatopoeiac text
- farnsworth 4y ago
  Does this help you coordinate your core muscles around your diaphragm with the rest of your body?
  - dmoy 4y ago
    Anecdotally, from experience in fencing, no. My coach was like one of the US Olympic coaches, and he told us shouting or making noise doesn't help at all (in that way) (He also told us to not shout after the action stopped, as is common in a lot of fencing, but that didn't always work out so well) Screaming does help with: * Raw power (which is largely not a factor for fencing or aikido). Weight lifting, tennis, javelin throwing, etc. Shouting during the action gets really common. * Coordinating with other people (not a thing for one on one, but team fights, yea. E.g. if you've ever watched player comms for high level eSports, it can get really spammy when coordinating attacks on a specific target) * Mental intimidation. Either of the other competitor, or, as it looks like in fencing, the ref lol
sys32768 4y ago
No mention of the Aztec Death Whistle? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9QuO09z-SI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9QuO09z-SI
- hackitup7 4y ago
  Great video, and A+ branding on that instrument
boomboomsubban 4y ago
Are elephants really bothered by pigs? All the claims of pigs being successful seem to be from BC Greco-Roman historians, making them very prone to propaganda and the writers were often unwilling to divulge actual military strategy. None of the sources seem to be Asian or African, where surely they fought far, far more elephants than the Romans. And I can't find any modern confirmation of it. It seems like the noise could have been replicated with some kind of trumpet, and we'd have a long legacy of those being used against elephants.
- rramadass 4y ago
  Good point. Elephants have been used in warfare for centuries in South/South-East Asia and i can find not a single account of pigs/noise being used to rout them. Even their Elephant training manuals do not mention them. See also: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34637079 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34637079
  - johngladtj 4y ago
    My understanding was that it wasn't so much the pigs that scared the elephants, but the fact that they were running around on fire
    - boomboomsubban 4y ago
      It's supposed to be the mad squealing from them running around on fire, if it were just the fire they'd use torches and fire arrows.
Gabriel54 4y ago
The Ottomans had some of the oldest (recorded) military marching bands [1]. Lots of great recordings on YouTube [2]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_military_band https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_military_band [2] https://youtu.be/FuqwJmPc_8I https://youtu.be/FuqwJmPc_8I
- terminalcommand 4y ago
  And this tradition came from shamanism. The music also utilizes hypnosis. The soldiers march two steps forward one step back. It is a technology really. They knew how to get into a trance state. In the old religion of Turks (shamanism), the shaman played a frame drum close to its ear and induced a trance on himself. In contrast to other shamanistic cultures (for example native americans), Turkish shamans did not use any plants to induce such altered states but relied on music.
Cthulhu_ 4y ago
Another example is the Haka + all the visual intimidation associated. Actually there's heaps of examples; in the modern day there's the flashbang, although it doesn't seem like modern day armies use much intimidation tactics anymore other than e.g. Shock & Awe, but that's actual destruction instead of just intimidation, similar to the Blitzkrieg.
cunningfatalist 4y ago
This was super interesting, thanks for sharing.

64 points by tintinnabula 4y ago

I have this situation where I ride electric motorbikes and mopeds around a fairly crowded city. I regularly have close calls with pedestrians who are simply not looking for me, because they haven't heard me. Lucky, I'm a defensive driver, or I would've killed a few people already by now. I often think I should write an app for my iPhone that synthesizes "broom broom" noises based on GPS-derived speed information. But then I realized all I really need is a low-tech whistle on my helmet, or bells on the handlebars to jingle the pedestrians out of their comatose state in time to avoid collision ..

liotier 4y ago
> I regularly have close calls with pedestrians who are simply not looking for me Looking out for slower and weaker users is always the responsibility of the faster and more powerful. Pedestrians are the most vulnerable... In a city, should never have to pay attention. But we are not there yet and most pedestrians are surprised when this cyclist stops to let them cross !
- aa-jv 4y ago
  >Looking out for slower and weaker users is always the responsibility of the faster and more powerful. I absolutely agree, this is why I'm extra careful. But I do believe that the same circumstances came about when we went from horse and buggy to automobile .. and that eventually, peoples' own survival instincts will kick in and they'll just be more alert. Key thing is to avoid becoming part of the problem ..

viraptor 4y ago

Another one to add to that collection: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_hussars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_hussars Polish heavy cavalry with wings making loud buzzing noise during charge.

bitsinthesky 4y ago
Do you have an example handy of the sound they’d make, maybe a youtube video? Sounds interesting.
- viraptor 4y ago
  Unfortunately not. YT is flooded with nationalist crap in this case, but letters from the Hussars talk about the rustling of the feathers scaring the horses. Then again, we still don't really know exactly how they were constructed / mounted, so any replica is a bit of a guess.

UI_at_80x24 4y ago

My personal favorite item related to this is various peoples that used slings would carve lead/stone ammo to make a high-pitch whistle as the bullets flew through the air.

analog31 4y ago

No mention of the bagpipes.

sys32768 4y ago
Take my upvote for reminding me of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O61hI0QNCL4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O61hI0QNCL4
stonogo 4y ago
Nor the apel.

RcouF1uZ4gsC 4y ago

Another example is Gideon from the Bible where they smashed a bunch of jars and blew trumpets in the middle of the night which caused the enemy to think they were being attacked by a large army and caused them to fight each other.

twic 4y ago

There's a bit in Xenophon's Anabasis (1.8.18) where the armies of two contenders for the throne of the Persian Empire, Cyrus and Artaxerxes, meet in battle. Cyrus's army has a contingent of Greek mercenaries, including Xenophon, who gives the Greek view of the battle in some detail. The armies draw up into lines and slowly advance towards each other, until suddenly the Greeks charge: καὶ ἅμα ἐφθέγξαντο πάντες οἷον τῷ Ἐνυαλίῳ ἐλελίζουσι and at the same time they all uttered the cry as for the Warlike One [ie Ares, god of war] καὶ πάντες δὲ ἔθεον and all flew forward λέγουσι δέ τινες ὡς καὶ ταῖς ἀσπίσι πρὸς τὰ δόρατα ἐδούπησαν they say that some loudly beat their shields with their spears φόβον ποιοῦντες τοῖς ἵπποις sowing fear among the horses (the Greek is Xenophon's [1], the English my crummy translation) So, screaming and drumming to scare the enemy and his horses! The reason i remember this bit about thirty years later is that the word for a war-cry here is "ἐλελίζουσι", "elelizousi". My teacher suggested that this was onomatopoeic, because the cry itself was "ELELELELELELE...", which would be pretty easy to make as you were running towards an enemy, and would be pretty upsetting to hear, coming from thousands of armoured Greeks. As sort of evidence for that, the same word also means "to whirl round" [2], and you can imagine that whirling an object round on a string (as with a sling) would also make the same sort of sound. Wiktionary reckons it's from some proto-Indo-European root, but what do they know, they've probably never charged anyone in their lives, the nerds. [1] https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0201%3Abook%3D1%3Achapter%3D8%3Asection%3D18 https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext... [2] https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%29leli%2Fzousi&la=greek&can=e%29leli%2Fzousi0&prior=*)enuali/w|&d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0201:book=1:chapter=8:section=18&i=1 https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=e%29leli%2Fzous...

smogcutter 4y ago
I find that etymology fun but unlikely, considering (iirc) that “lalo” means to speak or call (as in echolalia), and the epsilon prefix is part of a past tense conjugation (the aorist? I forget, it’s been a long time)
- leetcrew 4y ago
  > the epsilon prefix is part of a past tense conjugation (the aorist? I forget, it’s been a long time) I thought the same thing (also been a long time), but looks like this is actually the present participle of ἐλελίζω. nice tool if you're not already aware: https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=elelizousi&la=greek https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=elelizousi&la=g...

cronix 4y ago

Kind of like the Stuka Siren/Scream[1] sound combined with the doppler effect the German planes used in WW2 to make that wailing sound that increased in frequency as they dive bombed. That sound carried quite a distance and instilled fear in anyone who heard it, which affected more people than those that were bombed. The Tie Fighters in Star Wars used a similar sound. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhJ8HY24Pb8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhJ8HY24Pb8

dmix 4y ago
I've watched plenty of combat footage on Reddit in Ukraine and noticed artillery shells make a high pitched doppler sounded before they impact, usually 1-2s before. You can always see soldiers hit the ground... even when the impact is really far away. Is this intentional? Where basically you create suppressive fear over a large area but even if you hear it you rarely have any reasonable reaction time to do anything about it if it hits near you (unless you have a foxhole). But it still scares the shit out of everyone nearby? Or is this just merely a side effect of the munition traveling through the air at high speeds?
- dforrestwilson 4y ago
  Side effect. From the shooter’s perspective it would be much easier to cause mass casualties with everyone standing up instead of hugging the contours of the ground. Zero warning is the goal.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- Cthulhu_ 4y ago
  > You can always see soldiers hit the ground... even when the impact is really far away. Better be safe than sorry; with only two seconds of advance warning you don't want to take the risk / be smug about it. Plus, shockwaves and shrapnel can travel far.
homero 4y ago
This whole time I thought that sound was the engine

akeck 4y ago

To this day, martial arts like Aikido incorporate a shout (in Aikido, it's called "kiai") to boost the impact of a move.

ihatepython 4y ago
In SF2, Guile will say 'sonic boom' before delivering the sonic boom
- Cthulhu_ 4y ago
  In Super Smash Brothers, Captain Falcon will say "Falcon Punch" before delivering the Falcon Punch.
  - fsckboy 4y ago
    In Batman, punches have often been accompanied by onomatopoeiac text
farnsworth 4y ago
Does this help you coordinate your core muscles around your diaphragm with the rest of your body?
- dmoy 4y ago
  Anecdotally, from experience in fencing, no. My coach was like one of the US Olympic coaches, and he told us shouting or making noise doesn't help at all (in that way) (He also told us to not shout after the action stopped, as is common in a lot of fencing, but that didn't always work out so well) Screaming does help with: * Raw power (which is largely not a factor for fencing or aikido). Weight lifting, tennis, javelin throwing, etc. Shouting during the action gets really common. * Coordinating with other people (not a thing for one on one, but team fights, yea. E.g. if you've ever watched player comms for high level eSports, it can get really spammy when coordinating attacks on a specific target) * Mental intimidation. Either of the other competitor, or, as it looks like in fencing, the ref lol

sys32768 4y ago

No mention of the Aztec Death Whistle? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9QuO09z-SI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9QuO09z-SI

hackitup7 4y ago
Great video, and A+ branding on that instrument

boomboomsubban 4y ago

Are elephants really bothered by pigs? All the claims of pigs being successful seem to be from BC Greco-Roman historians, making them very prone to propaganda and the writers were often unwilling to divulge actual military strategy. None of the sources seem to be Asian or African, where surely they fought far, far more elephants than the Romans. And I can't find any modern confirmation of it. It seems like the noise could have been replicated with some kind of trumpet, and we'd have a long legacy of those being used against elephants.

rramadass 4y ago
Good point. Elephants have been used in warfare for centuries in South/South-East Asia and i can find not a single account of pigs/noise being used to rout them. Even their Elephant training manuals do not mention them. See also: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34637079 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34637079
- johngladtj 4y ago
  My understanding was that it wasn't so much the pigs that scared the elephants, but the fact that they were running around on fire
  - boomboomsubban 4y ago
    It's supposed to be the mad squealing from them running around on fire, if it were just the fire they'd use torches and fire arrows.

Gabriel54 4y ago

The Ottomans had some of the oldest (recorded) military marching bands [1]. Lots of great recordings on YouTube [2]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_military_band https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_military_band [2] https://youtu.be/FuqwJmPc_8I https://youtu.be/FuqwJmPc_8I

terminalcommand 4y ago
And this tradition came from shamanism. The music also utilizes hypnosis. The soldiers march two steps forward one step back. It is a technology really. They knew how to get into a trance state. In the old religion of Turks (shamanism), the shaman played a frame drum close to its ear and induced a trance on himself. In contrast to other shamanistic cultures (for example native americans), Turkish shamans did not use any plants to induce such altered states but relied on music.

Cthulhu_ 4y ago

Another example is the Haka + all the visual intimidation associated. Actually there's heaps of examples; in the modern day there's the flashbang, although it doesn't seem like modern day armies use much intimidation tactics anymore other than e.g. Shock & Awe, but that's actual destruction instead of just intimidation, similar to the Blitzkrieg.

cunningfatalist 4y ago

This was super interesting, thanks for sharing.